Trick or Cheat?

[Fuzzball]

It seems that to those who were unaware of this previously, this has come as a great shock. It is also causing much insecurity amongst Pbem'ers and ctp'ers in general. All so far have agreed, whether they call it "trick" or "cheat" that this rush buy switcheroo can seriously disadvantage, and upset the balance of a decent competitive game.
The conclusion therefore, would be to set up a legit pbem ratings mod, or a small patch update. In this update we would need to sort out the production cost variables within government types. I'm sure it's alot more work than it sounds like. But I'd volounteer my assistance to anyone willing to take on the task.

[Thue]

*Rushes to see if the bug is in freeciv* It wasn't

This would be really trivial for you to solve if you had the source .

[Immortal Wombat]

I had known about this for a long time, but rarely used it, not because I considered it cheating, but because I rarely rush buy stuff. It takes just as long to build a granary as a settler, so why not just let thm build normally? (Of course, I don't play PBEM, where I expect rush-buying is much more important)

However, I would just say that it can be hard to enforce this rule. What if someone who hasn't read this thread and is unaware of the cheat starts building a granary, goes to rush-buy, in order to speed his city development, then finds an ideal city site, with the enemy settler only 2 squares away? He would change the queue to settler and, according to these rules, will have cheated. I know that is unlikely, but it is one possible case.

Secondly, I don't know if you are aware (surely you must be?), but when you conquer an enemy city, if you immediatly place your own item into the build queue, then you keep the existing production there. This is very useful, for instance, you send in a troop of paratroopers to the enemy capital, that is building a wonder, capture it, then change production to a Leviathan (or tank, or whatever). If you are lucky, then the production will be sufficiently high to get you the Leviathan in just one or two turns, meaning that you instantly have some defence, and can resume the offensive. It is so unrealistic that a half-built Star Ladder can be transformed into a Leviathan in one turn, that surely it too is chetaing.

I do not regard the build-queue swap as cheating, (it was also possible in Civ2 btw, and over in that part of the site, I think it is named as a rather useful strategy...) and though I rarely use it, I have no qualms about doing so.

My 2 cents...

Ben

[quinns]

Keygen, Fuzzball is right about the "switcheroo" limitations. But there are other examples that come to mind that would, IMO, force gross changes in production strategy because of the acceptance of this bug in games. It would cause players to hardly focus on regular production and concentrate on gold increases only.

Here are some examples for you, (that work Blackice, believe me ) (gold costs are calculated using Deity mode):

Settler (3240 g) for the cost of a Granary (1080 g)
Mounted Archer (1620 g) for the cost of a Temple (540 g)
Tank (12000 g) for the cost of a Factory (4000 g)

Yes, the city production time is the same for each of the above pairs, but the rush buy costs are grossly different. So cities would start focusing on building banks and merchants to increase the gold in order to rush buy everything. I would much rather pay 4000 gold for a Tank rather than have to crank out 12000 production factors for one! Am I explaining this okay?

[blackice]

quote: Came on laddies, you are going to broke your nails for this trick in the game???

quote: Let's go play and have fun

quote: And for you Black I'm quit now in ALL the games I'm involved if this make you happy. Anyway you are out the ratings so how could affect you my higer rate?

No that's not what I am saying, maybe you don't understand the magnatude of this "Trick" I am building a bank you have built a bank, I am still building a bank you have build and aquaduct and a bank. Explain to me how by exploiting this bug and doing that it is fair or even Then explain to me how moving up the ratings exploiting this bug is fair It clearly is not fair so laddies we are not (Well some of us ) fair players wanting an even playing field to have fun playing a game we are, seems we have that in common. Sorry for your misconception.

Now don't go trying to make me happy I have been told that is hard to do No one wants anyone to quit what I was saying is if a rule is passed not to use the exploit in order to play you would have to agree, what is the point in having a rule you don't agree to As far as me being in the ratings it does not effect my desire to have a balanced, fair, competative Pbem game none what so ever, also being rated or not should in no way have the ability to nulify one's say in the PBEM community, think of it as an unbias opinion As for lets go and play and have fun, let's do it.

I would have to say Rick banning or a penalty in the future should not be ruled out. But for now this is new so if we all just agree as I said as "good sports" not to use or to use the exploit should be enough for now.

Why don't we start a thread and put it to a vote, let's face it wouldn't it be a shame to stop all play until we figure out a mod Let's just decide what to do now and go by the honor system until it is resolved.

Now really You have to love this game


IMO.


[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 15, 2001).]

[faded glory]

DP read below
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]

[faded glory]

Mark, the very title of that news story is yellow journalism .....The future of CTP is not threatened.


Blackice, happiness is a insignificant factor! Control it abstractly with the Wage bar and Ration's bar,Always have production on 12 hours . Build Granarys, Aqueducts, mills, factorys, and anything else that improves production. Then when you have a city with a monopoly in it and that makes alot of money. Build a Marketplace,Bank, and airport. See, I set it up so where I have "Producing towns" "Cash towns" and little town's all over that do both. But you will never find a hospital,theatre, or anything else that ups city happiness in my Civ. Mainly because Maintence cost Drain's important money that normally goes to Science.


To everyone else, most of us are noble PBEM players. We can all promise not to use this "Dasterdly Bug". I believe most of us will keep that promise.
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]

[Keygen]

quote: Originally posted by quinns on 05-15-2001 05:59 PM Keygen, Fuzzball is right about the "switcheroo" limitations

I see. It wasn't that clear at the beginning .

I did a test though and if you let a phalanx or a mounted archer for two turns and then do the cheat you might earn up to 6 turns for a wonder!
Well, not bad at all .
I wonder how much you might gain with other units or improvements because the turns gift I think varies...

[berXpert]

quote: No that's not what I am saying, maybe you don't understand the magnatude of this "Trick" I am building a bank you have built a bank, I am still building a bank you have build and aquaduct and a bank. Explain to me how by exploiting this bug and doing that it is fair or even. Then explain to me how moving up the ratings exploiting this bug is fair. It clearly is not fair so laddies we are not (Well some of us ) fair players wanting an even playing field to have fun playing a game we are, seems we have that in common. Sorry for your misconception.

I'm sorry if went wrong but remember that the cheat is only between buildings to units.

So if you are building a Bank (20 turns) and I build a bank (rush buy 2200)

Next turn, you are still building a bank (19 turns) and I build an acueduct (rush buy 1800)

Now you still have your 10,000 plus the savings of 2 turns let it to 100 = 10,100 and I have 6,000 + 100 of savings = 6,100. You have enough money to start a wonder after the finish of your bank, and if other player want to win you then (even you don't want to do it) you going to rush buy it.

And remeber, you can't rush buy for ever, only if you have money, so continuing with your example. Your bank (18 turns) and I buid a factory (4000 gold). Next your bank (17 turns) and I build a marketplace (1800), next turn I can't buy anything, but you can complete your bank for only 1800 not the 2200 that was for me. So you must have a good strategy to rush buy 'cos in the way of the example I only get 3 stuff and you 1, in the powergraph for that 9 turns I'll get higer than you, but for the next turns I won't be able to buy anything, and maybe you finish your acueduct by then and still having 10,000 or more for an eventuality (like rush buy armies) and I won't, and your pg will be higher than mine I think.

I don't say that rush buy is fair or even for the rates but if Keygen put 10,000 gold in his mod, so it should be used in some form and the only one I know is rush buy or give it as a gif to some one else.

So I suggest to stop this cheat is not allow put money at the accelerated starts and that's all, no wonders no pikemen for the cost of a temple

And as Blackice let me continue playing I won't use the cheat again. In fact I have no more money now

[jpww]

Guys, let's not blow this whole deal way out of proportion! A cheater, once he's caught, should be shot right there and then. Point Blank. Two shots in the head

Correct me If I'm wrong, but the action you take in order to expose a cheater, could be presumed cheating itself. For instance, I would consider the act of opening your opponent's turns downright cheating. In my opinion, a committee of some sort has to be appointed to handle cases of this nature.

[MOBIUS]

Wow what a can of worms that has been opened up here...

Personally anyone who wants to take advantage of bugs in the system is cheating! Claiming to be using them because "everyone else must be using them too", cuts no ice (excuse pun!)...

To justify cheating because it's similar to using mods is also bang out of order - ALL players have previously agreed to use a mod to get on with the game faster. It's entirely different!

Anything that is not in the spirit of playing CtP fairly needs to be stamped out!

We had this in the beginning of the Demos game with the Granary/City Wall bug and all of us except for the one person who took advantage took steps to fix it! He complained bitterly that he would be at a disadvantage - perhaps if he hadn't cheated in the first place he would have been in the same boat as the rest of us!!?

Frankly there's only two solutions:-

1)Moderators

2)Gentleman's agreement

I prefer option two myself, and I'm happy to say apart from the above mentioned hiccup, I've seen nothing to arouse suspicion - we are like a club and I look upon my fellow players in the games I play as friends (even the foes! )...

As for emails between players, I'd call that diplomacy - in a good PBEM game I'd say for every forum post there's at least one private email being sent - that's where the REAL juicy action is...

As for fisheries being improved - it stands to reason that the groundwork has already been laid - therefore it takes less time. How else do you upgrade, destroy the fisheries first!!?

Look, if anyone's not sure about something POST A THREAD ABOUT IT! Don't just assume to your advantage...

All I can say is, if you can't make the distinction - I don't want to play against you...

[Fuzzball]

quote: Originally posted by jpww on 05-15-2001 07:28 PM Correct me If I'm wrong, but the action you take in order to expose a cheater, could be presumed cheating itself. For instance, I would consider the act of opening your opponent's turns downright cheating. In my opinion, a committee of some sort has to be appointed to handle cases of this nature.

Not that I would approve of such...but...well.. isn't it legal to break the law in order to prove a crime in the U.S.? We got any yankee moderators out there? hehehe

Also, speakin' for myself here...I'm more than willin' to spit in my hand and slap palms in a cyber fashion with anyone I play, in agreement not to make use of this silly little bug again. I will admit I have used it before at need, and probably will again in multiplayer online games. But I want to play pbem too you know, and do it on an even keel with the dudes I'm playin'. I like the people and discussions on the forums and in the pbem games. Makes me feel kinda fuzzy..
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]

[jpww]

quote: Not that I would approve of such...but...well.. isn't it legal to break the law in order to prove a crime in the U.S.? We got any yankee moderators out there? hehehe

Are you happy now, Quinns?????
[This message has been edited by jpww (edited May 15, 2001).]

[bj]

Different game but still applicable, you might want a quick glance over this:
http://www.planetquake.com/features/...-05-13_a.shtml

[Fuzzball]

The easy way to solve this would be to create a mod where the production cost of buildings resembles the same cost as the units. This would create problems with governments though, as production cost changes depending on the government used.