800 Bc

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by binTravkin
PJay, do you realize there will be no trading between us and GS, neither us and Banana? That's it. We're on our own, locked out.
...
I don't need to blame GS/Banana, I see quite obviously GS has warned Banana quite some turns ago (see warrior running West) and they are now boosting Banana, which is a violence of our sphere of interest.

I don't agree. While it's true this event is not beneficial to us, I wouldn't go as far as calling it a secret alliance between GS and banana. When we signed the TTT, everybody was happy with trades between ac-gs-banana. Now it actually happens, you start shouting about betrayal and being locked out etc...

I know there will be no trade between us and banana. The reason I posted the probabillity about a sea trade route, is to change our diplomacy message to banana. It's quite ridicuoulous to tell them we're building a road towards them if we already have a trade route by sea. They'll immediately know we're not building the road for trade, but for war.

About GS though, I agree they (should) have reasons for not being so friendly to us as in the past, but there is no in-game evidence of that. If they give archery for free to bananas next turn without sending us any answer to our diplomacy messages, that'll be in-game evidence.

Also, GS has acces to exactly the same information about us as bananas, so why do you think GS has figured out we are gearing up for war and not Banana themselves ?

If GS sends archery, we sign open borders with Vox and give them Iron Working. That'll probably mean the end of peace on our continent

[binTravkin]

Maybe, maybe not. That fact they haven't replied kinda forces our hand though. I don't like the idea of revealing the Vox help now but waiting for GS/Banana's to reply can only hurt us now.

I think it will pretty obvious when next turn GS gifts Archery to Banana and in some 8 more turns - Construction.
They sped up its research to help Bananas asap, I dont think they're worried about conquering Vox as long as Bananas can hold us.

About doing currency next, given the change in situation getting engineering for cats might be a better choice? If we're planning on killing GS off we'll need them, the question is whether we can get them in time by doing Currency / CoL first to boost GNP.

We have almost an equivalent of catapults, so we dont really need them (also cats are very weak vs Horse archers, which means you just need one in a stack). We also dont have ivory yet.
I'd say finish those two first and then we can focus on Construction.
It wont be sooner than some 30 turns anyway when Bananas are dead.

[binTravkin]

I don't agree. While it's true this event is not beneficial to us, I wouldn't go as far as calling it a secret alliance between GS and banana. When we signed the TTT, everybody was happy with trades between ac-gs-banana. Now it actually happens, you start shouting about betrayal and being locked out etc...

Well, as I said I didn't expect GS to trade with us for so long and I did a mistake by not proposing to start trading with Vox once we got last techs from them.
Signs that tell of GS-Banana alignment:
- Bananas apparently have been warned - what other need of moving warrior West there could be?
- just a few turns ago Bananas were researching Masonry - why was that not traded with GS?
- why is GS delaying diplomacy for two weeks?

I know there will be no trade between us and banana. The reason I posted the probabillity about a sea trade route, is to change our diplomacy message to banana. It's quite ridicuoulous to tell them we're building a road towards them if we already have a trade route by sea. They'll immediately know we're not building the road for trade, but for war.

If they continue the course of warrior, they will know about the road in a turn anyways, but yes we should exclude it.

About GS though, I agree they (should) have reasons for not being so friendly to us as in the past, but there is no in-game evidence of that. If they give archery for free to bananas next turn without sending us any answer to our diplomacy messages, that'll be in-game evidence.

Ok, what are the chances they will do so?
IMHO some 90%

Also, GS has acces to exactly the same information about us as bananas, so why do you think GS has figured out we are gearing up for war and not Banana themselves ?

They barely know what they're doing.. Don't you remember the tech trade episode?

If GS sends archery, we sign open borders with Vox and give them Iron Working. That'll probably mean the end of peace on our continent

Indeed, that should be next turn.


I agree that we should send that message to Bananas, if nothing else, then for confusion.

I also predict GS gifting Archery and a few turns later Construction to Bananas - we can't even ask the details of the deal until the war starts, because that would be just suspicious, after the war starts, it's even less useful..

[Lacero]

There's no reason to panic I guess, we don't need to give Vox IW this turn. It can wait for at least one more, but I reckon Banana's will have archery then.

[binTravkin]

Well, ok next turn it should be then, still we've delayed it all too much.

[Mart]

we should be ready for a case when 'nanas have few archers, or have gifted units from GS.
GS probably see aiding 'nanas as slowing us, i wonder how much they gonna give 'nanas for that reason. archery is cheap. some axemen?

[Lacero]

I think if Banana's had been given archery 5-10 turns ago we'd be in a worse position. It's not that bad

[binTravkin]

They can't give axemen or any other men because of distance

Yes, it's not that bad but we might need to rethink Beijing schedule for military after settler is finished, or instate Police State once war starts - production wise it will pay itself back in 4 turns.

[PJayTycy]

In order to "gift" units, they must be in the other's territory, which means GS and Banana either need open borders or war. If they sign open borders with each other and not with us, they should know we'll support Vox as much as we can.

[PJayTycy]

anyway, as this discussion is more about diplomacy etc and not about changing build queues / worked tiles for this turn, I'll hit end turn and send it on.

[binTravkin]

Yeah, most action will be next turn

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Well, what worse could happen?
They will gift Archery anyways, if it is as you say.

They might intensify their military build-up.

Btw, where is that Banana warrior people talk about? I can't see any on the midturn.

[binTravkin]

They might intensify their military build-up.

They seem to be already outputting a unit each 2 turns.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Some or all of the Banana power graph changes this turn may be techs, well need to see PJ's score analysis to see what their actually building.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by Maniac
Btw, where is that Banana warrior people talk about? I can't see any on the midturn.

See the startturn, our scout moved further east, so now it's not visible anymore.