1000 Bc

[Lacero]

binTravin's list of reasons convinces me.
Oracle is a great single step but we need continuous research soon, our strengths atm are tech lead due to huts and high production (due to tech lead (forges) ). Using wonders to turn that into a continuous tech advantage (collossus + coastal cities) allows us to build up a military advantage too using our strengths at each point perfectly.
You guys probably knew all this as you were planning it, but it's nice for me to see it even if only in hindsight We're doing well.

I'm not sure about researching monotheism and popping machinery with the oracle. Is there no way we can get even further ahead with a clever oracle slingshot?

Are we planning on not using engineer specialists in the city with the Oracle (Xian) to make sure we get a prophet? Or are engineers so great, and gpp so precious that we'll make one anyway? I don't have much of an opinion on this (I haven't done the maths) just curious.

[binTravkin]

I'm not sure about researching monotheism and popping machinery with the oracle. Is there no way we can get even further ahead with a clever oracle slingshot?

Machinery is a good slingshot (the most expensive and useful tech we can take atm).
If we manage to get it, Bananas are dead in short order and we can intervene in Vox-GS affairs down south (that is, get there in time to gain Vox as puppet).

Monotheism gives us religion + organized religion civic.
The civic is good in two aspects - if we build Pyramids, we'll have two switches at one go, and we will have +25% building production, which only adds up to our currently greatest strenght - building.
Religion is always good, especially if it comes packed with a civic that let's you spread it without monasteries.

Are we planning on not using engineer specialists in the city with the Oracle (Xian) to make sure we get a prophet?

I think it, samely as in Tassagrad, is not the best way to use city's resources, at least until we get Representation.

We'll be making most GP's @Beijing, especially once we get National Epic.

[Lacero]

Originally posted by binTravkin

Machinery is a good slingshot (the most expensive and useful tech we can take atm).
If we manage to get it, Bananas are dead in short order and we can intervene in Vox-GS affairs down south (that is, get there in time to gain Vox as puppet).

cool, there was some talk of researching machinery if we used the gp for pyramids, but if that time is better used researching something else (ie. we can't research a path to anything better before finishing oracle) then yes of course we should pop it

[Impaler[WrG]]

Glad to see Oracle has been so enthusiastically supported, I personaly feel the contamination risk in Beiging is worth it for the extra turn but the present plan dose have its advantages. The remaining 7 turn period we have Beiging continuing its production as planned, Xian doing the Oracle and Tassagrad continuing to pump out axemen and other units.

Lets consider all the combinations that will result from the Engineer and the Oracle, If the engineer pops Machinery what can the Oracle get access too? If the Oracle takes Machinery first what will the engineer pop?

[binTravkin]

Damn, damn, damn, damn!

I have to apologize deeply to everyone, my analysis was based on an incorrect value - GE is actually in 5 turns, not 7!

That makes the quite good argument why Xian not Beijing, not that good.

Basically that means following:
1.we can build Oracle in Beijing in 6 OR 7 turns
2.after the GE is born, we see if pyramids are available, if they are we switch to pyramids for a single turn and finish (which makes oracle 7 turns), if not we proceed (oracle in 6 turns),
3.colossus in 3 turns after that.

Personally I think that popping Machinery with Oracle is better as Oracle is inflexible - you can't use it later or for something else and Machinery is the most expensive and useful tech we can have for now.

[binTravkin]

The closest things for GE to pop after Machinery are:
Construction
Monarchy
CoL

Neither really useful to us and hard to maneuver past as we already hold the prerequisites for second two and are likely to trade Maths.

Construction could be good, however I'd rather spend the GE building Great Library, which is an easily accessible wonder now (of course if we don't manage Pyramids, which I don't believe ).


EDIT: If GE pops Machinery, best things Oracle can give us are: Currency, Calendar, Construction, CoL

[Impaler[WrG]]

If the die is not yet cast then I'd go for the Beiging 6 turn plan to maximize Oracle chance, Collosus can be delayed without risk at this point and we will likely come right back to it in the near future. I'd set Xian up with a Barracks so it can serve as another Unit producing city.

[PJayTycy]

(completely relying on bt's numbers now)

either we do :
=> forge+oracle in Xian; done in 7 turns, choose machinery
=> settler+collossus in Being; done in 5/6 turns
=> GE in Being; done in 5 turns, instabuild pyramids

or we do:
=> forge+? in Xian
=> switch to oracle in Being
=> GE in Being; done in 5 turns from now, instabuild pyramids
=> continue oracle; done in 7 turns from now
=> settler continued + whipped; done in 8 turns from now
=> collossus done in 12 turns from no


I think the first option is more balanced out over our cities. We spoil 2 GPP, but I don't think that's really an issue.

[binTravkin]

Yes, we lose those 2gpp, but the most important point I think is the turn we lose.
It might as well be the one someone else builds it.

At the same time, if we get the Pyramids (and Im 80% sure we will), there will be no time difference.

Decisions, decisions..

[-SafaN-]

i'm leaving now for the weekend, so someone else has to do the turn then.

my vote is with the majority

[binTravkin]

my vote is with the majority

Okay, have a good weekend then!

[Lacero]

I vote for keeping beijing clean of prophets, if it's our gpp factory for the whole game we could end up with never ending prophets when they're useless. We only need one early one, and if we get another later on he can always be burnt on a golden age with another gp.

[binTravkin]

It won't be never ending prophets in Beijing actually, as we're gonna add a crazy mix of other GPPs and prophets will be like 10% or less.
It happens that the random number generator favors prophets, but if we be the first at Monotheism, we'll need at least one, if we're not, we might use one to pop Theology for a religion.

[binTravkin]

I'll hold on the turn for three more hours, just for the case if some good argument comes up or something, for now it looks like Oracle will be @Xian (2 votes for, 1 against, 1 undecided)

[Impaler[WrG]]

Theirs no compelling reason to go Xian now, and multiple reasons to go with Beiging, they are

1 turn Faster - I can not over stress how much it would suck to lose Oracle by 1 turn, if were going to go for it we go FULLY COMMITTED to leave as little to chance as possible.

2 - Great Engineer not polluted, 5 turns for Engineer, 6 for fastest Oracle build.

3 - Centralized GPP, Prophet points are still points and increase the speed with which we get our second Great Person. Xian will take ages to produce a Great Person because the capitol will keep bumping up the limit faster then the Oracle points will accumulate to a Person. Theirs no way to guarantee what type of person our second is, Engineer will be the most common but Merchant will also be likely and theirs no real downside to throwing Prophet into the mix. If we miss Jewdism we can pop a Religion Tech with a Prophet if we hit it we get Temple of Solomon both great uses of a Prophet

With 1 Engineer and 3 wonders each producing 2 GPP thats 9 GPP per turn and gets us to the next Person in ~23 turns. With one less wonder its ~29 turns.

P.S. Bin Travin do you ever log on with your ICQ number? Give me a ring at 36404290