Vox Diplomacy

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dominae
If I were them I would search the continent far and wide for another team and sell my soul for an alliance. That would mess up Gathering Storm's plans considerably.

According to Don, they've already looked and it seems there's no-one there.

[Dominae]

According to Don...who is the leader of the team we're currently at war with?!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dominae
According to Don...who is the leader of the team we're currently at war with?!

Well, yes. There is always the possibility of a bluff, but he said it in response to nye's probe, and as part of his argument in favour of an alliance. If he's offered that info spontaneously it would be more suspicious, but the context made me think he was telling the truth.

If it was a bluff, it was a good one, imo.

[Cort Haus]

Also, if there was someone there, he'd be more likely to try and forge an alliance with them, to come and take us by surprise, rather than pressing for peace now.

[Krill]

OK, Question: How long to grow to size 5, and what do we do in the mean time? About, what, 54 food is required, so we are looking at about 12 -15 turns, if we grow constantly? So that excludes any settlers or additional workers, but includes using the sheep.

So in the next 12 -15 turns we can build, excluding this skirm, about 3 more Skirms, without promos? Then factor in time in transit...

Eh. The biggest problem I see is that to choke Vox now is not that we fall behind to relative teams, but I don't think we are growing fast enough in absolute terms...another settler, another worker and the ability to improve this beautiful land etc.

I dunno. I can see advantages to both peace and war, but only under these 1v1 conditions. I don't like not knowing about the possibility of others on this continent which would realy throw the balance...

[notyoueither]

Jon tried to chat with someone in GMail this morning (he will see whenever someone is in there to get a save).

I reached out to Don this evening to see what is up, and to suggest they stop trying to chat with whoever happens to be around.

Keep in mind I am trolling for info.

nye
let me know when you are here
Donegeal
I am here, but only for a short time. What's up?
nye
jon tried to contact us early today. was wondering if you guys had something to talk about
nye
btw, gmail is not the right way to contact us. you could get a lurker who knows nothing about the current situation
Donegeal
I did not know he tried. Must be wanting a response to our last 'official' letter.
nye
we are discussing it. surprisingly, there is more positive response than i thought. still not enough to begin discussions
Donegeal
Well, I'm glad that at least some on GS is seeing past the blood lust to the massive advantages of an alliance.
Donegeal
Is there many who favor it?
nye
i don;t want to get your hopes up
Donegeal
What would be some of the concerns or praises for it?
nye
speaking solely for myself. where would you envision a border between us?
Donegeal
Hmm... where ever a border would benefit both our teams.
Donegeal
I see borders more like "Here is the best places to put cities on this continent. Now lets see how we can divid them between us to get the best numbers out of it."
nye
ok. anyway, this is premature. as i said, we are discussing it
Donegeal
np. Anytime you have a question, just do what you did here. Send a quick little ditty and I'll respond when I get on...
nye
ok
Donegeal
If there is nothing else, I have to go to work.
nye
np. good luck
Donegeal
Die scum.
nye
:E
Donegeal
er... creepy *****...
nye
heh. yes, that's it.
Donegeal
bye
nye
bye

[Mudhut]

*Bump*

So just to confirm (I've been away) that we still haven't sent an official response to Vox's last message? I know nye has chatted, but still... I really feel we should respond formally.

So here's my proposal - I don't care if we reject this and send something completely different, but I really do feel that we need to send some sort of formal response.

>>>>>

Dear Voxians,

Thank you for your thoughtful message regarding the possiblity of an alliance between our nations. There has been much discussion amongst the members of Gathering Storm about the various possibilities open to us.

At present, our consensus view is that the Storm is best served by remaining at war. Obviously, we intend to keep dialogue open between our nations despite the hostilities, and our desires may change at a later point.

With respect, we disagree with your assessment that this early war will harm the long term prospects of the eventual victor. Early skirmishes such as this are common in multiplayer games, and for our part we don't intend to completely abandon our economic development.

So, on with the war. Our mighty warrior Grog remains on the high ground outside The Voice - you attack him at your peril!

Feel free to contact us at any time via notyoueither. Our responses may not be fast, but you can be assured that they will be deeply considered.

Sincerely
Gathering Storm

>>>>>

Note that I've tried to give them the impression that they have some long term hope of breaking the choke. I agree with the sentiment in the Vox Choke thread that our best chance of an early victory is to get them out of The Voice. [ie If they sit and build nothing but archers we have to spend a lot more resources to take them. So we want them to come out and fight us or build workers/settlers]. So I've tried to make it seem that perhaps they could fight us of or that we might decide to turn to economic development in the near future.

Please, any comments welcome, but I feel we really need to formally reply. Every time nye chats with Don he has to keep hedging his responses with "the team is still considering" and "this is just my personal opinion" so we need to give them the certainty of an official team response. Soon.

[notyoueither]

Why respond? and why soon?

Many of us have stated we want to know where copper is before making longer term plans. If the Voice is built on copper, for instance, we might form different opinions than if Vox have no copper near-by.

[Mudhut]

Ok. I guess it seemed obvious to me that we should respond formally (other than in ad-hoc chats), and I really hadn't thought of the pros and cons. So taking a step back, here is an outline of my thoughts on the issue.

Here are my pros of responding:
1. Respect. They took the time to send us a formal response, so we should too. This just shows respect and helps them feel that we have dealt with them fairly.
2. Persuasion. Every time we interact with another team it's another chance to get them to do what we want. In general, more talk is better.
3. Habits. Last game, GS' reputation as slow-and-poor diplomats negatively affected our outcome. [I wasn't there, of course, but so I'm told...humble apologies if I'm treading on toes here.] Let's not get in to bad habits early - setting a pattern now is a good way to go.

Cons of responding:
1. Reaching a consensus. Before we can tell Vox something, we need to know exactly what we want to say! And this obviously can be difficult, with the relatively unstructured nature of our discussions and the long timeframe that results.
2. Locked in. We might tell them something, and want to change our mind. Then we lose out in the "honour" stakes [and I know that's been an issue in the past, as well.]

So I look at those and think it's definitely worthwhile to send them a formal reponse now. In this instance, we can addresses the two negatives listed above in the following ways:
-I think it's a good idea for us to send another message in a dozen turns (when we discover bronze) that addresses the situation then. [I agree that this is when the situation will clarify considerably.] That is, after all, more than two months away in real life, so this isn't exactly bombarding them with communication! I've made it clear in my draft that our message is "War - for now" not "War - for all time"
-Trying to compose a message to Vox could help us reach consensus, as we all speak up about what we're prepared to say (or not prepared to say, as the case may be). So in that way it could actually be a positive thing for our direction and gameplay.

Do let me know what you think.

[notyoueither]

You make some good points. Let's see what others think.

[Mudhut]

Yup, let's see who pipes up. But while we're waiting for others to speak up...

One other thought I did have was the whole "actions speak louder than words" thing. I mean, we still have Grog fortified in their territory, it's pretty obvious we're still keen for war... so this counts on the side of "we don't need to send an official response saying we're at war".

I guess, the more I think about it, the more I think it probably won't matter much if we *never* send a formal response to Vox. We have the upper hand, we're going to crush them, who needs to talk?

So, as I analyse my motives, the driving force is really my gut sense that it's good game strategy to keep dialogue frequent and formal. And perhaps this is a misguided idea in this immediate context.

[Ennet]

Silence for now..
Nye has informed them we think war is in our best intrest for the moment. I think that's enought until we get bronzeworking and can see where that copper is located (and also see a little better how Vox choose to play their game).
Sending an official letter, three turns late that is just stating: "blank", would work the other way around and rather lock us at war if anything not freeing up possibilities.
Quoting nye from his chat with Donegeal: "the team may come to another decision but that will take time". That statement leaves us with the possibility to change course later on, much more than an official response saying the same thing would do.
It's true that we could change our minds later anyway, but officially commiting to war in a letter and a few turns later change our minds (if a new situation arises: vox gets copper/new team appears, etc) would not favour us in anyway, rather let them belive we are still concidering peace as a possibility.
Any letter to vox would say nothing or commit us to something we might not want to. I dont mind losing "honour" much, but creditability is a different thing. Even a small loss could damage us much later on. Anyone that has played the game called 'diplomacy' will know what i mean. There, everyone knows you will betray them, and likewise you know they will betray you. What it is all about is convincing your opponents that you wont betray them yet, which is why any early credibility loss, how trival it yet may seem is bad.

[Cort Haus]

Despite them making the case for a grand alliance, they must know that we are pressing home our advantage now (UU) while we have the opportunity, and that they will have advantages later (strong borders from culture and a strong UU). I'm sure the case has been made in the Vox forum to cut a deal now and crush us with Cossacks later.

As has been argued above, our position hasn't changed in that we are continuing with the conflict, so we have nothing new to say. If Vox approach us again, we could respond that we do not intend to reconsider our position at this point.

[Arrian]

I have no problem with some sort of formal response, but I think it should be shorter and reveal less than Mudhut's draft.

No response at all is probably fine, though, since we *have* responded, via NYE's chats with Don.

-Arrian

[Mudhut]

Okey dokey, I think that's enough time.

So basically nobody* thinks it's worth sending a formal response to Vox atm. Which is fine with me, I bow to the greater collective wisdom of the team

On with the war.

*"nobody" here does not refer to nye/Ennet/Cort Haus/Arrian, who are most definitely Somebodies (to be precise, Somebodies who think we shouldn't speak to Vox atm). Rather, it refers to all the people who didn't post about this issue.