Civ Choice

[Dominae]

1. Mansa
2. Qin
3. Saladin

[Dominae]

What's the worst that can happen if we fail to get an early Religion?

Looking at the civs that start with Mysticism, only Gandhi and Saladin are really popular choices, and I'm not sure how popular Saladin really is outside this forum. I think the chances of some team picking Montezuma or Huyana are pretty low, given that they broadcast a rush strategy and people know that that's bad (broadcasting, I mean). I'm betting there will be a Gandhi, though. So it seems safe to say that Religions will not go that fast.

How many Warriors do we want to start out with? The more Warriors we want, the more an early Religion makes sense. Mansa Musa is a doubly-bad leader for Religion, because he does not start with Mysticism and also because he's so close to the great tier two tile improvement techs: Bronze Working and Pottery (he starts with The Wheel and Mining).

[Krill]

Mansa is also only 2 cheap techs away from his UU. Hunting and Archery...

I say to hell with the first 3 religions, try for CoL via pottery and writing. Bronze working is damned close as well, so we can always research that early if we really want to.

[Krill]

Assuming we used Mansa:

Cottage the starting area if it is good, FIN really helps there, and speeds research to CoL (we could then do alpha after and try to trade for what we need), or bronzeworking to deforest if we need to, and we can already mine hills and go for a major shield producing cap.

If we start with grains we get agri early, if animals we go via hunting and are closer to our UU.

[Theseus]

Play it safe... SPI and no resource req. I also lean towards early game safety and the most directly realizable benefits, so:

1. Mansa Musa
2. Montezuma
3. Saladin

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
What's the worst that can happen if we fail to get an early Religion?

That's one thing to talk about before the first turn starts...

I think, that if we want to have it easy, we have to go for an early religion, so one of the 4. One is enough, but not taking advantage where we can have multiple would be bad, but let's see this when we get there.

Of those 4 religions, the only sure way to get CoL first is in building the Oracle, although a writing beeline for an academy can also work. So, CoL demands us taking the HinJuIsm path.

CoL is important in any case, but getting Confucianism is the biggest bonus, especially if you missed out on the previous 3. Seeing as I place getting a religion very high on my priority list (the games I played without one were disasters early on, until I got a relgion spread, and missionaries to distribute it), if we decide not to go for the first 3, racing towards CoL is paramount. If we fail the first 3 but start on them, going to Theology (GP preferred) might be better.

Now, if we were to start with mysticism, we will get an early religion for sure. All it takes is a river, or some coast (or anything else that will give you more commerce): people always have the tendancy to focus on growth or production for their first tech, I will gladly give some growth if it nets me a religion.

By putting all on commerce from the first turn onwards, we should get an idea how we're doing by analyzing GNP figures: we should be first in stats (equal to the other teams going straigth for commerce). If not, it might be better to start on Polyhteism so if we lose it, we can go for either Priesthood (Oracle) or Monotheism. Otherwise, Meditation first, Oracle as a backup.

If we don't start with Mysticism, going for mysticism might still be an option, depending on who else starts with it. Or, we forget about the first 3, and go for CoL

--------------------

Something else worth considering is the use of GP... if we are PHI, we can very quickly churn them out, at least the first 2-3... a GPr will net us a religion if it comes around the time of Monarchy. A GPr + GS gives a golden age, which creates more then enough turn advantage to discover a religion first, or conquer a holy city. You don't need a religion to get a GPr, Oracle and IIRC some other wonders give GPrP as well. And a GE from the Pyramids starts a golden age too...

DeepO

[Krill]

Stonehenge gives GPr points as well...throw that in a second city via forest chopping, and we would have a good advatage there...

[Solomwi]

As I said above, resource independence is high on my priority list. I'm very intrigued by what this team could do with PHI, and SPI is at its best in the hands of micromanagers.

1. Saladin
2. Mansa Musa
3. Alexander (being able to use copper or iron mitigates the resource dependence, and if this game turns out to be the slugfest MPDGs are known to be, AGG will be nice to have).

[Krill]

I would not be certain that we got a river or coast. I have failed to get both a number of times.

Now, what to we gain if we don't go for an early religion?

We can go a number of different paths: Bronze for forest chops and copper, AH for animals and horses, Pottery for cottages, and a straight CoL beeline, Archery for defence, fishing if we are coastal...

In other words, we would not be pigeon holed.

That is ione of the big advantages of Mansa. We could do all of those I listed well. We could research agri straight off to go for pottery (yes, I know about fishing) or AH, we can go for hunting if we want archery (Skirmisher) or AH again...we would be financial, so 3 early cottages would puch us ahead of the pack in research by a far way (assuming no one gets gold, gems or silver etc...)

[Krill]

DeepO, have you ever considered what 3 Skirmishers can do to someones economy? Just pillaging and standing on someones land?

[DeepO]

What will be the most wanted traits in this game? I mean, my distinct wish for a SPI leader comes more from creating a fun atmosphere to play in... there might be better traits, but this one is certainly the most dynamic and thus entertaining from a strategic perspective. But what about other teams?

Personally, I think the main 3 traits will be IND, AGR and FIN. EXP too, especially at Monarch or up. SPI might come in 4th, possibly with CRE from the MP crowd. PHI will not be on most wish lists, I think.

So, expect to see some harsh competition for wonders. We're chosing a path away from easy wonders, I hope everyone will understand that... as much as I like them, I think we'll have to do some serious planning, and invest considerable focus to get those that we want.

That said, are there favourites?

For me, I don't care that much which one, but if at all possible we should aim for an early wonder. Oracle or Pyramids preferred, but even Stonehenge is important. GLighthouse, Colossus, GLib and Hanging Gardens I don't consider early, but more second wave... getting one of those might be excellent as well.

Without stone, there is no way to get the pyramids with our choices so far: Everyone knows how to chop, the IND and stone civs will beat us for sure. Oracle might be a problem too, but not if we are willing to spend it on a less than ideal tech (writing, IW), and chop like crazy. Stone Henge, or Colossus might be our surest way to get those extra GPP we need....

DeepO

[Krill]

Stonehenge is a good wonder, better in MP, but we would have to remember that it would be better in the 2nd city, but we might not even get that...

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Krill
I would not be certain that we got a river or coast. I have failed to get both a number of times.

I've seen very little starts where there is no way to get extra commerce from the start... half the resources give commerce. We might need to stop growth to get that commerce, but normally there is some.

If there's none, we'll have to adapt

Now, what to we gain if we don't go for an early religion?

We can go a number of different paths: Bronze for forest chops and copper, AH for animals and horses, Pottery for cottages, and a straight CoL beeline, Archery for defence, fishing if we are coastal...

In other words, we would not be pigeon holed.

CoL is the last of the early religions, as it is quite easy to reach, and is on one of the other paths away from the 3 others. CoL is a very good goal, but I would hate to reach it unexpectedly: either we plan for it from the get go, or we try something else... After failing to reach the first 3, going for CoL is most of the times not so good as going for e.g. Christianity.

As to other paths: We need a religion, somehow. If we don't go for one, we'll have to acquire it. Most obvious other choice is doing it militarily: choking is perfect, but only if it will net you an advantage later... a holy city would be the best possible spoils of war a religiousless team can dream off.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Krill
DeepO, have you ever considered what 3 Skirmishers can do to someones economy? Just pillaging and standing on someones land?

Well, yes, sure... and if we don't do it ourselves, we'll have to take the possibility of it happening to us into account. But choking is not enough, we need happiness.

Well, if we're not playing noble, that is.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Krill
Stonehenge is a good wonder, better in MP, but we would have to remember that it would be better in the 2nd city, but we might not even get that...

It depends on our starting spot. Stonehenge will be wanted by others as well, and we are certainly not focusing on those traits that will help us getting it. I think that teams starting with IND might go for the Pyramids more often, however if one of them decides on Stonehenge, it's hard to get it. Certainly in a second city.

BTW, I do like a hunting-first research too, you can go worker-scout or warrior-scout in your capital and still get some huts in SP. All this religion talk does not mean I don't like archers, and I'm aware that we'll need them early.

DeepO