Civ Choice

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dominae
To make the War Chariots shine, we would have to really rush (build 0-1 Settlers, research Animal Husbandry, hope to have Horses), which unfortuantely is not really synergistic with Egypt's trait strengths: rapid expansion to maximize Creative, and a Religion to maximize Spiritual.

I see SPI as more of a civics thing than a religious one. Maybe because not all SPI civs start with Mysticism.

[Cort Haus]

The other thing about Caesar is that he starts with Fishing, which can be a bit of a damp squib if you're inland.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I see SPI as more of a civics thing than a religious one. Maybe because not all SPI civs start with Mysticism.

But Hatshepsut does start with Mysticism!

Temples are very good builds for Spiritual civs, but very average for everyone else. The "no Anarchy" ability is quite relevant when first switching to a State Religion, since it's often very early in the game.

I completely agree that, over the course of the game, Spiritual primary benefit is with respect to Civics. I was just pointing out that Hatshepsut packs a powerful one-two cultural punch in the early-game: Creative, plus the cultural benefits of a Religion and Temples.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
It certainly channels us, as does the AGG trait, IMO, into predictable priorities.

Agreed with respect to ORG, but not so much with respect to AGG.

Aggressive is really good on defense, too.

One "secret" that I have learned from CIV MP (Internet MP I'm talking about here, which may or may not apply to PBEM) is that it's better to be the (prepared) defender than the aggressor. A failed offensive in CIV is crippling, leaving you very weak for a counter-attack.

Aggressive civs, on the whole, have more flexibility with respect to Promotions, which I believe is better for D than for O.

If we do end up with an AGG civ, I hope some other team makes the mistake of attacking us. Just like Vox did!

[Cort Haus]

Because I'd got used to avoiding adopting a religion (for diplo reasons) in SP, I'd forgotten how useful religion + cheap temples were until recently. +2 happies for the pair is more than handy when calendar & monarchy are a long way off.

In fact, the thought of being able to run religious civics in this game is wierd, so used am I to avoiding the -4 heathen penalty.

[asleepathewheel]

I think we should play to our strengths: micromanaging.

What traits are enhanced the most by close micromanagement? Philisophical and Financial. Elizabeth Though her UU sucks, imho, I think we can specialize our cities to create a powerful economy and GP enhanced empire.

[notyoueither]

The redcoat kicks ass.

It is 16 to 14 in str, and more importantly, gets a bonus vs gp units. That makes it 20 str attacking a 12 str grenadier and 20 defending vs an 18 str grenadier.

And it eats mounted units as a nice, light snack.

You have to live to rifling though, but other civs have much later, and less dominating, UUs.

[notyoueither]

Liz is one of my favs, btw.

[Dominae]

Elizabeth is definitely one of my top choices, too.

Stats-wise the Redcoat does a fine job, as nye mentions. But as I said before, it comes at an awkward time in the tech tree: a beeline to Rifling leaves so much untouched (like the Scientific Method and Democracy branches), and that whole part of the tech tree just seems builder-ish to me. Maybe our opponents will feel the same way, so we could catch them off guard...

[Krill]

Hatsheput does not start with Mysticism. Hatsheput starts with The Wheel and Agriculture. Hatsheput is not a good civ if you wish to beeline for one of the first three religions.

[Krill]

One "secret" that I have learned from CIV MP (Internet MP I'm talking about here, which may or may not apply to PBEM) is that it's better to be the (prepared) defender than the aggressor. A failed offensive in CIV is crippling, leaving you very weak for a counter-attack.

I would agree with the gist of this as well, as it does agree with my experience of MP in Simultaneous turns. In simul turns, cottages are not usually built right at the start of the game, as most people focus on getting production set up so they can defend themselves. I would say that this might be different here however, as I doubt most teams would rush anybody, with the exception of the Horde...

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Krill
Hatsheput does not start with Mysticism. Hatsheput starts with The Wheel and Agriculture. Hatsheput is not a good civ if you wish to beeline for one of the first three religions.

My bad, I thought Mansa Musa was the only SPI civ to start without Mysticism...

[Krill]

Below are all ofthe civs that start with Mysticism. Note that the Incans are not Spi.


Asoka- Organised, Spiritual, Indian (Mining, Mysticism, fast worker: worker with 3 moves)

Gandhi- Industrious, Spiritual, Indian (Mining, Mysticism, fast worker: worker with 3 moves)

Huayna Capac- Aggressive, Financial, Incan (Agriculture, Mysticism, quechua: warrior with +100% vs archery units)

Isabella- Expansive, Spiritual, Spanish Fishing, Mysticism, conquistador: knight with +50% vs melee units, receives defensive bonus)

Montezuma- Aggressive, Spiritual, Aztec (Hunting, Mysticism, jaguar: 5 str sword[6] with +25% jungle defence, no reource req)

Saladin- Philosophical, Spiritual, Arabian (Mysticism, The Wheel, camal archer: knight with 25% withdraw chance, no resource req)

[Arrian]

Interesting discussion so far. My thoughts:

I like the discussion about PHI. That certainly makes Elizabeth an interesting choice. It also could make Saladin a good call (given the discussion about founding a religion). Given that I expect open borders will be harder to come by than in SP, Mercantalism becomes more interesting, and PHI civs get the most out of MERC, wouldn't you say? That's down the road and thus a minor consideration, but it's there.

...

I like Mansa Musa a lot, even though he doesn't start with Mysticism. He's a builder with a solid early defensive UU. That works nicely.

Qin is a pretty obvious choice and I think we'd do fine w/him.

I love Rome in SP... but I fear taking Rome is just placing a big fat bullseye on ourselves (don't let them get iron hooked up! kill them now!!). Good trait synergy for SP, but Dom's point about trade being different in this game is probably true. So, IMO, scratch Rome.

I don't like Isabella. Tried her once, didn't like the traits.

I guess the main mitigating factor I see w/regard to the EXP trait is that it's carte-blanche to clearcut forest early. Quick granaries can add pop growth, to add poprushing to the equation with cheap temples to deal with the unhappiness... I dunno, though.

Elizabeth... vulnerable early, venerable late. Redcoats kick ass, btw.

I gotta think some more and organize my thoughts, because I'm just rambling now.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Ok, more organized now:

Saladin - Maximum Flexibility.

PHI for reasons already stated, and SPI for civic changes. Personally, I love being spiritual when somebody sneak attacks me post-nationalism. Switch to nationhood that turn, and draft 3 defenders which, with luck, can arrive at the battleground that very turn. Sure, ideally you don't want to put yourself in a position where you need to draft, but it happens. Oh, and if memory serves, the Camel Archer is a decent UU.

[note: wow, by far the longest writeup... maybe I'm leaning towards Saladin!]

Qin - FIN gets you the tech you need for wonders, IND lets you build them faster. Decent UU (I guess... actually, I don't really like them). I play him a lot in SP.

Ghandi - hey, you're pretty much guaranteed to get to use your UU! That's nothing to sneeze at. He builds wonders, he founds religions... but he's neither FIN nor PHI.

Elizabeth - techie. PHI for GS's + FIN. Redcoat comes a bit late, but it's solid.

Mansa Musa - Builder traits w/good defensive ancient UU. A little slow out of the gate, perhaps, but solid all-around.

Cupac - AGG/FIN. His UU kinda screams early rush and I kinda doubt we want to do that. Well, maybe. FIN always good, AGG is decent even if you don't rush anyone.

Bismark - IND/EXP. Run to forges, chop, and hit somebody hard? Late UU.

Alexander - PHI/AGG. Played him once and played him poorly. Solid early UU. I dunno.

Isabella - SPI/EXP. Maybe. I need more convincing, though.

I would avoid creative, both because it will piss people off and because I think it's a meh trait overall. I also don't want us forced into one strat - so somebody like Ghengis Khan is out, IMO.

Organized... I generally agree with you all that it requires expansion to really shine and we cannot count on that. Sigh. I like ORG. But in this context... no-go.

-Arrian