Development plan

[fed1943]

When a complex situation is hard to explain, many times is easier
to begin by the end.

Atlantis is a commercial city. A quick look shows that. Nevertheless,
does not output a single commerce point from its radius.

The reason is clear: the city is so busy with minimal defense and
settlers builds, that cannot work its better tiles.
And the consequences are so clear, better say nothing about.

Just one, yet good, solution: new cities to build things and leave
Atlantis free to do what it can do very well.

There is now one reasonable, balanced city at west. And a new event
(I see it as a happy one) : a coastal, barb city to SE.

That makes again very interesting the great powerhouse to the
east (the A site). Territorial coherence makes defense as easy as
possible. Civil works needed by radius are jungle removal,farms and
mines. Builds: monument,granary,barracks.

These done, this new city and Port Rubychaser can provide defense
(and offense). The only units to be built by Atlantis should be
workers and eventual settler.

True, that would force, for a awhile just 5 pop at Atlantis and 4 at
other cities; but much better than current situation.
NE city (and its marble and gems) shall be ours when said two
younger cities can help.

Your thoughts, please.
Best regards,

[couerdelion]

Isn't Site A the city that stops us from building any city to work the pigs?

[Paddy]

cheers fed, i like

looking forward to the answer for couerdelions question

actually where is site A exactly?

I must go look that up again

[fed1943]

Yes, site A is the one who stops us to work the pigs (that's the
price) but no longer the clams, since they are in the (temporary)
barb city.

I'll try a screenie.

Best regards,

[fed1943]

Site A

...

[fed1943]

So, site is grass/hills, plus 5 grass/hills, 2 dyes, corn and bananas
in radius, that is, great production, enough food to work it and
some commerce.

Best regards,

[couerdelion]

"Failing to work a pigs tile" is one of the most serious crimes in CIV.

I've probably said it before but the 5/1/0 pigs tile is the most productive one we have right now.

Just because the barbs have the clams in their city radius doesn’t mean we can’t have another city controlling the clams – though I will need to review that city. We can always raze it if we don’t want it.

The term production is perhaps a misleading one. A lot of people think that this basically means mines which is a not a helpful way of thinking. Excluding specials, a grassland hill mine is probably one of those “borderline” tiles. If you work one of these tiles, your city worker is just about making enough to make a small marginal contribution to the civ. In fact, I tend to think of the grassland hill mine as about the same as a grassland forest – you work the tile while you are waiting to whip the city.

The only time that you might value those mines more highly are when you are building workers or settlers (here food = production). Apart from these builds there is a simple rule which applies much more dramatically for small cities.

Food > Hammers

Where the city has a granary

Food >> Hammers (that >> means “is worth a lot more than”)

To give an example, we need 20 food to grow from size 3 to size 4 in Atlantis. Whip that an we get 45 hammers. So,

1 food = 2.25 hammers

There is something a little odd about the city worker movements in Atlantis at the moment which goes against all this. We work the 0/3/0 tile (which I only ever work in the first 1000 years of a game) when we want to build an axemen, and steal the 4/0/0 tile from Port Ruby – which prefers food to hammers – when we build a settler. It should really be the other way round. I’d even suggest we should grow Atlantis up to 4 again and then start a settler once the build reaches 60 hammers.

[Paddy]

so what site are your thinking of then Couerd?

[fed1943]

Once more here we are. Nice. My "philosophie"is: theory is a very
helpful tool,but just actual thing is true.

Here, builds must not be subordinated to WF; conversely, WF has to
subordinate itself to builds needs.
And current bigger needs are: to get Atlantis free to increase commerce, that is, get cities that can output hammers; then, increase
happiness.

To that, Atlantis must built settler ASAP and unit(s) if said unit is
needed before other cities can built it; and Port Ruby must build
monument ASAP to allow camp the ivory.

So, while Atlantis builds settler/worker, best tiles are (Points= F+H)
corn and stone - 5 points, then rice - 4 points; when, builds axe, a
lot depends if a settler follows or not; if yes, 3H makes it faster. If
it was the same (was not) then let the rice to Port Ruby.
Port Ruby needs grow, but overall the monument to help all civ:
Atlantis from 4 to 5 pop, all others from 3 to 4 pop.

(BTW, if rice with Atlantis build settler and rice to PR and Atlantis 3H
to build axe,is wrong, then what? Rice always to Atlantis? Or to
Port Ruby always? Or, reverse, Atlantis 3H to build settler and 4F
to build axe? Or?)

Grass/hills/pig (5F1H) is a very powerful tile,indeed; but just 1 tile
doesn't make a city; and grass/hills/mine (1F3H) better than
grass/hills/forest (1F2H) or plains/hills/forest (3H).

About site A: thanks to Atlantis culture, some good tile can be
immediately worked; and city output (food,hammers,commerce)
from pop 1 to pop 20 is very impressive.

Best regards,

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Paddy
so what site are your thinking of then Couerd?

I guess this is where my “thinking out loud” catches me out. I need to propose some alternative.

First, let me make an assumption that the barbarian city is on the plains hill site to the south east and its “fat-cross” contains the clams, bananas and both spices. It has neither fresh water and does not act as a canal route. It also does not stop us from settling on the coastal grassland jungle hill (3S, 4E of Atlantis) which takes in pigs, clam and dyes(x2) and we then see this as an early GP generator once our initial military needs are met.

Here then we run into the other open questions

1) Are we planning to DoW Vicky (My own opinion is yes)
2) How soon should we do this? (When we are ready – and we should be building up now)

So the military needs are relatively short term and within little time, we can turn the attention of the city to the GS generation needed for either an academy (or perhaps for Philo lightbulb)

In this short term, city will be able to grow to size 3 with whip unhappy and size 4 without. At size 3 is would be producing 8 food surplus, 1 hammer and 8 commerce or 6 food surplus, 4 hammers and 5 commerce. At size 4 is would produce 7 food surplus, 4 hammers and 8 commerce.

Build requirements (Monument, Work Boat (could be from Atlantis or Port Ruby) and Barrracks) = 128 hammers
Worker requirements = 1 farm, 1 mine, 1 pasture, 1 road (25 worker-turns)

Now I can’t quite see what the plan is for Site A. It would require a lot more worker-time and would be a much slower developer starting with a 2/1/0 tiles rather than 3/0/3. It might even have lost food immediately it is founded whereas the coastal hill would get the fresh water bonus and leaves less jungle to chop.

Need to check something again about "site A" following fed's remarks although he is wrong about us needing a city that produces hammers. It is PRODUCTION that we need and food produces more production than hammers.

[couerdelion]

Just a few comparisons on worker requirements on the two sites under discussion

Site A:
Farm dyes (8 turns)
Chop jungle and build mine on “roaded” hill (12 turns)
Farm Corn (9 turn – including movement)
Chop and mine second hill (12 turns)
Worker either returns to civilisation or builds road to corn (2 or 6 turns)

Total worker time 43 or 47 turns
City output working all four tiles +4 food surplus, 7 hammers, 5 commerce

Site A+
Farm dyes (8 turns)
Mine hill (7 tuns – including movement)
Pasture and link pigs (13 turns)

Total worker time 28 turns

City output working pigs, dyes, mine and clams +7 food, 4 hammers, 8 commerce
+2 health from resources
Potential to build boats

For build requirements both cities need a monument build first
Both would be expected to build barracks
Site A+ would need a workboat (but might not need to build itself)
Site A would need a granary

So I think A+ is

- the faster developer
- provides higher production (because 7 food + 4 hammers > 4 food + 7 hammers)
- requires less production to get running
- requires less worker time
- provides more immediate health benefits, and
- has greater flexibility (after immediate production needs are met, can switch to GP production)

[Nugog]

Interesting stuff.

[fed1943]

Whip: always,never,or( theory and real)

Some players say never whip, others always whip. I do not agree.
(no whip does include whip in dire need or unhappiness problems)

Whip is just a tool that trades food after it is converted in pop by
hammers. Can very rewarding (Atlantis whipped its granary) both,
just counting food v. hammers, as strategical.
But also have a huge price, as keeps the city small; whip has its own rules so the best time to profit more from whip may not be the same when the unit or building is wanted; leaders also count, and our leader, financial and not spiritual, doesn't help whipping.
Whip also trades in both sides (gain and lose) turn times, not so
easy to evaluate.
But, the biggest consideration is abundance of food or hammers.

So, I want to use the whip, but not to depend on it.

More closely on pig site v. A site:
Pig site is much faster developer, not by the reasons posted, but
because it has a grass/hills in our territory that can begin be worked, even before the foundation of the city; so,faster monument,faster radius, and with it, pigs and clam.

There was a twist (as can be seen just by reading the forum)
that still is: the situation of the clam's tile.
There was a barb city that owned the clams (all players in the
chat saw it); now, both in the final chat V, as initial chat VI, saves,
it is not.
And the good food and commerce from said tile makes the difference.

The truth is in Mr. P. stored save. I already emailed Paddy asking
him to check that and let me know.

Best regards,

[fed1943]

The pig site:

[fed1943]

now the pig site with draw in it...