The great person thread

[Sullla]

Popping a golden age to save a single turn of Anarchy seems like an unbelievable waste of our first Great Person to me. I really need to see a more convincing argument to get me to support this. Besides, this whole notion of popping a golden age to avoid two separate Anarchy periods (for HR and Bur) doesn't work, because we won't even get the Great Scientist for another 7 turns, by which time we'll have both techs and can double-swap for a single turn of anarchy!

If we can grab a religion from Philosophy, and need it for trade purposes, it's an option worth considering. Still, it all comes back to the question of having trading partners. Even an expensive tech is pointless if no one wants to trade for it!

I still believe early Academy (combined with Bureaucracy and Great Library) is the best way to go.

[Dreylin]

Is Philo enough beakers to also ask for Math with CS? Or woudl taking Math instead of HBR be better? (and then researching HBR next)

I think Pal got Maths from Imperio, so they can't ship it to us.

[T-hawk]

The 2nd and 3rd turns of anarchy would be for Organized Religion and Islam. I'm not a multiplayer veteran; what religion civics are often used?

Here are some actual Golden Age numbers. Here's what we are currently producing and would lose to each turn of anarchy, with estimation a few turns from now.

16 surplus food. ~24 in the near future once we get happy and work food for growth.
46 hammers. ~60 in the near future once Heroic Epic is on for military.
51 beakers at break-even. ~60 soon with A1's wines and next cottage and Yellow's clams.

Here's the current Golden Age boosts and estimations for the period 7 to 15 turns from now.

20 hammer tiles now. ~25 hammer tiles averaged over Golden Age so 200H total.
19 commerce tiles now. ~25 commerce tiles averaged over Golden Age so 200C total.

So the total Golden Age payoff is about this:

If 0 turns of anarchy saved: 200 hammers, 200 commerce.
If 1 turn of anarchy saved: 24 food, 260 hammers, 260 commerce.
If 2 turns of anarchy saved: 48 food, 320 hammers, 320 commerce.
If 3 turns of anarchy saved: 72 food, 380 hammers, 380 commerce.


BTW, while logged in, I took the liberty of swapping Green Acres from plains wines forest to grassland forest. +1 food to grow this turn instead of next. No impact on Monarchy research.

[Zeviz]

So if Academy gives us extra 20 beakers (a rather conservative estimate), it will take us just 13 turns to match commerce output of 1-anarchy GA, and 13 more turns to match hammer output. Which means that Academy in the capital is still a much better option, since the breakeven point is just 26 turns away and anything beyond that is pure profit.

As for bulbing Philosophy, it might work if we take Liberalism->Nationalism slingshot. The only problem is that if we research towards Machinery instead, we'll have maces much sooner.

[sunrise089]

@Zeviz - Keep in mind the GA will accelerate the next scientist, and we can then settle an academy. So the proper comparison is T-Hawk's 1-turn numbers + extra great people points + value of revolts to Organized Religion and a state religion versus the academy's commerce in the time between the first and second great scientists.

@ T-Hawk - In ancient, MP guys only change civics to slavery and then hereditary rule. In eras with starting civics, they choose Organized Religion and then if they can revolt to Theocracy for free (via Spiritual or a golden age) when every city has religion and basic buildings.

Keep in mind (and some of this isn't true in our demogame) that MP guys don't have the luxury of one-sided AI trades for happiness, and there is no religious diplo penalties in MP. Therefore while in builder mode you want to be in Organized plus state religion any time it's worth more than the anarchy.

[Swiss Pauli]

Popping a golden age to save a single turn of Anarchy seems like an unbelievable waste of our first Great Person to me. I really need to see a more convincing argument to get me to support this. Besides, this whole notion of popping a golden age to avoid two separate Anarchy periods (for HR and Bur) doesn't work, because we won't even get the Great Scientist for another 7 turns, by which time we'll have both techs and can double-swap for a single turn of anarchy!

If we go the GA route, then we're also swapping to Org Rel and Islam, which would allow us to build NE fairly rapidly at A1 whilst maintaining a largely commerce oriented set-up.

Also, we can't be sure how PAL will react to the news that they won't get HBR in 5/6 turns, but more likely 11/12 (allowing for anarchy). At best, we'll get CS in 5 turns; at worst they'll withhold the tech.

[mostly-harmless]

I will remain stubborn and see an earl academy as the best option right now.

On the topic of religion, do we really want to adopt Islam and help Imperios GNP even further with their shrine? We have also Christianity in Pink Dot.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Adopting Islam doesn't do anything for Imperio's GNP. I think you're assuming that we'll actively spread Islam, which is another matter entirely.

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, we will have to spread around our state religion, otherwise there is no point in adopting it and moving to Org Religion. And with every new Islamic city we create Imperios GNP will go up.

mh

[sunrise089]

Who controls Christianity? I would advise we revolt to it if it is Templar controlled.

[mostly-harmless]

Templars. No shrine. No prophet point producing wonders or buildings.

mh

[Zeviz]

I don't know if upkeep for Org Rel and diplo hit with Templars would be worth converting to Islam that we have in only two cities, one of which is likely to be training units for the foreseeable future.

How long would it take to get second GS from the capital if we went with a Golden Age?

[regoarrarr]

CB is at 54/100 and will get a great person in 8 turns, according to the turnplayer thread.

In 8 turns we should have 64/200 in A1. Without a golden age, that would generate a 2nd scientist in 22 turns. Golden age is 50% increase in GPP in BtS? So that would be 12 gpp for 8 turns = 96 GPP, leaving us at 160/200, or another 5 turns.

So 13 turns

[Dreylin]

Edit: moved to Religion thread.

Templars are a roleplaying team, right? Do we think that if we converted to Christianity and proclaimed our faith & devotion to them, that we could get them on our side?

We would probably have to be seen to be actively spreading the religion to convince them, but maybe we could pursuade them to unite with us against the "infidels"...?

[T-hawk]

Golden Age is +100% GPP. (It's additive with Philosophical or Pacifism or National Epic, so in conjunction with one of those, Golden Age is often reported as +50%. But in our situation it's +100%.)

+100% GPP for 8 turns will cut off exactly 8 turns from the second GP. So the figures for Golden Age with the first GS should also essentially include 8 extra turns of Academy.