The great person thread

[Dreylin]

Well I think that if we wait to do a double-revolt of HR/B then we're probably only a turn or so away from the GS anyway, however if think we need to get to HR ASAP, then we should do so.

When I originally proposed the GA, I was really looking at it as an empire-wide boost in production and commerce ... at a time when it looks like we may need it. I think a lot of the revolting/anarchy discussion has been based on /if/ we go for a GA, rather than as a reason for justifying it, and the two discussions have become intertwined and confused.

[sunrise089]

Disadvantages of taking a golden age:
-We loose out on ~(turns needed to produce second scientist after the first one/2) turns of academy boosted research AND we delay bulbing Philo one GS
OR
-We loose out on ~(turns needed to produce third scientist after the first one/1.3) turns of academy boosted research

Advantages of taking a golden age:
-Save a turn of anarchy for CS swap
-We can make the civic swap to Monarchy sooner
-We can revolt to Organized Religion and become Islamic (otherwise we wouldn't be doing this due to the cost of anarchy)
-We gain X amount of beakers and hammers, at a time where both production and tech may be critical.

[mostly-harmless]

IF we are planning to bulb Philosophy (which I am not convinced of) would we not like to found Taoism with it and spread our own religion, rather than spreading Imperio's shrine boosted Islam?

I would go with an academy for the first Gscientist and then reassess the situation once we have CS (still far in the future as far as I see it) and/or have the second GScientist, to keep it simple and clear cut.

mh

[sooooo]

My vote is for an academy at Airstrip One.

[Dreylin]

I think we need to revisit this issue, as nothing has been decided yet.

In light of our current tech deficit and likely delays on being able to fulfill our agreements with Pal, I think we need to revisit the idea of bulbing Philosophy and offering it into our CS trade. If we could get Pal to research HBR while we tech Construction, that would go a long way to digging us out of this hole....

[mostly-harmless]

Not convinced that is a good idea.
I am still for an academy at A1 asap, which will spped up our research rate!

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd like to see the numbers to compare a golden age versus an academy. I know T-Hawk outlined the GA numbers earlier and Sullla did the same for the academy, but I'd love to get the full detail. Sadly, I'm completely use at that sort of thing, though...

[T-hawk]

Afraid I can't give exact numbers while at work and not logged into the game...

IMO, the Golden Age is worthwhile congruently with timing it to avoid at least 2 turns of anarchy. The GA boost itself is easy to figure and unspectacular at this point. It's one extra hammer per hammer tile and one extra commerce per commerce tile, including city centers. Something like 20 each for hammers and commerce, times 8 turns, is 160 each hammers and commerce civ-wide. Each turn of anarchy loses roughly 20 surplus food, 40 hammers, and 60 commerce civ-wide, so canceling two turns of that is as much as the concrete Golden Age payoff.

An Academy in Airstrip One would give roughly 20 science per turn now, or 30 after Bureaucracy. This is a sizable boost. This pays back as much commerce (though not hammers) as a raw Golden Age in less than 10 turns, or as much as an anarchy-cancelling Golden Age in about 20.

If I were soloing this game, I'd delay all civics switches until the GS spawns then use a Golden Age to adopt them all. Anarchy is extremely painful and I always try hard to avoid it. The Academy is strong, but we'll have another opportunity in the near future with the second GS (which the Golden Age itself will accelerate.) We won't have a second opportunity for an anarchy-avoiding GA since we need to adopt all the civics sooner rather than later.

[sunrise089]

I agree with T-Hawk. The double-GP production of the golden age seals it for me.

That said, I'm more supportive of a philo bulb coupled with a PAL trade that gets us all of the military techs sooner than I am of an academy.

[regoarrarr]

Another pro for a golden age is that, if Imperio and/or Templars are contemplating attacking us, that might give them some second thoughts...

[Zeviz]

Would our swaps to HR and Beurocracy take just 1 turn if done together? If that is the case, Academy is better than GA, because Academy will produce more research after 20 turns, and research is the biggest problem for us.

Philosophy would be a bad idea, because we'd effectively be bulbing HBR. Since nobody besides PAL wants to buy Aestetics and Literature from us, chances are nobody else would want to buy Philosophy either. And reworking the deal with PAL would mean that instead of us giving them HBR, they'll be giving us HBR. Losing beurocracy- and GL- powered academy at the capital to get HBR 5 turns sooner sounds like a pretty bad deal.

[sunrise089]

@Zevis - Bulbing Philo also gets us a free tech on the way to Liberalism that only PAL would share, a potential trade tech later (remember, PAL wouldn't be able to trade it to Banana), and a military tech sooner.

[Dreylin]

Would our swaps to HR and Beurocracy take just 1 turn if done together?

But are we going to do them together? We will be able to go to HR next turn, yes, but unless Imperio decide our offer is too good to pass up we'll not have access to Buraeucracy for another 6turns. Would we wait that long to do a double-switch?

otoh, if we do get maths this/next turn would we be willing to wait the ~6 turns until we pop the Scientist before revolting?

A lot of the worth of the GA depends on the timing of when we get access to CS.

The idea behind offering Pal: Aesth+Lit+Philo for CS+HBR is that we can go straight on to construction after Maths and we start to catch up on techs.

[regoarrarr]

Is Philo enough beakers to also ask for Math with CS? Or woudl taking Math instead of HBR be better? (and then researching HBR next)

[ruff_hi]

We only need to go HR if happiness is an issue. We will have wines (+1 happy) connected shortly. In 3 turns, PAL has promised us Elephants (+1 happy). I'm thinking that it will take us longer than 6 turns to exhaust this happy cap increase - or am I missing some super-growing city somewhere ?