Turnplayer Thread #3

[sooooo]

Zeviz, I understand your concerns and I too would have more workers in an SP game. There are some good reasons why we have diverted production to other things, but I agree we need to find places to squeeze workers into the build queues.

Currently, 2 workers at pink dot makes sense as it needs cottages and they can be laid down quickly with two workers on the case. Green Acres is building its own worker so that's OK. Mellow Yellow needs some work - I would send Syme over there. Something fishy you have a good point. I would agree with your suggestion of putting in a worker ahead of settler to improve its own tiles. The cape town workers, once they have finished rebuilding the copper mine, I think should build two roads. One should finish the road to Airstrip One, the other should build a new road from Cape Town to Pink Dot.
For the remaining three cities, we have three workers, which is just about OK for now. Mustapha is heading (or will head when Sullla finishes the turn) to Saxon, which probably only needs one worker at the moment. China Beach too only needs one worker, and will receive help from Winston. Airstrip One also probably only needs a single worker (Bernard) to lay down one or two more cottages.

Things I would change this turn:

Mellow Yellow to forge. Library is not really much help immediately and I think we were building it for a lack of something else to build. A forge would increase the efficiency of our whips and chops here.

Cape Town to maceman. Our best unit, and goes with the theory of slow units at the front line, fast units from the back cities.#

Something Fishy to worker, as discussed earlier.

Airstrip One to forge. Next turn it will be able to work an additional 2 mines due to growth and the HG, turning it into a production monster. Building a forge here will surely make the most of our hammers. Plus a forge raises the happy cap (gems) to let it grow to size 11.

I will post something later in the urban planning thread about a plan for China Beach.

[Sullla]

We are close to having too many cities (our slider is already down to about 50% at breakeven), but we aren't even close to having too many workers.

Zeviz, that's simply not true. Currently, one turn at 0% science (+81gpt) pays for two turns of 100% science (-44gpt), and we are pulling nearly 200 beakers/turn at max rate. You could think of us as pulling in roughlu 130 beakers/turn at break-even, which is a very healthy total for 1AD. We can support more cities with ease, especially since they get 4-6 free commerce immediately from trade routes. I would like to see us continue to fill up our part of the continent with as many cities as possible, as this will be most helpful to our long-term growth. There is no reason not to keep building cities unless the economy is stagnating, and nothing could be further from the truth right now.

Regarding workers, we have 8 of them at present, and a 9th due in 4 more turns. We will continue to produce more of them as we can; I agree, we're a little on the low side right now, but keep in mind we had an atrocious happiness crunch until 8 turns ago, and we spent lengthy periods of time chopping for Great Library and Hanging Gardens wonders, AND had to take emergency measures at the Cape. I think we are in fine shape, and don't need to take any drastic steps.

I am very much opposed to swapping Something Fishy off of settler. Keep expanding! We haven't self-built a city since T102, and if we continue waiting, we're going to stall out again like we did prior to our settling boom in the south and west. Even by building settler right now, we don't found our 9th city until sometime around T127, which is already too long of a delay. I'd like to see us fill out the north ASAP once we eliminate the barb presence there.

Cape Town is definitely going to swap to mace; we merely couldn't make the move until we had Machinery. But what we really want here is elephants, which require waiting two more turns.

Airstrip One is an open question as to whether to do forge or National Epic first. Obviously forge is better long-term, getting the production bonus in play sooner, but National Epic gets us the next Great Person something like 5t sooner. Please weigh in with further opinions.

Mellow's development is still up in the air. Yes, forge is better, but it's also very expensive. Library has the advantage of being cheap, and getting into play sooner. More opinions here would also be good.

Regarding this picture:



There seems to be consensus for sending Bernard (in blue) to the X tile to add another cottage at Airstrip One. There also seems to be consensus for sending Winston (in red) to the X to chop/mine the forested grassland hill north of China Beach.

Mustapha Mond (in yellow) still hasn't been decided quite what to do yet. I heard some voices calling for chopping the plains forest near the city first, which might be the way to go. I am going to move him onto the yellow "R" tile this turn, which still leaves his options open to chop or go to the deer tile next turn.

I think that covers most of the issues... for now, anyway.

[Sullla]

- Swapped Cape Town to maceman (2t, with tons of overflow).

- Swapped Airstrip One to forge (12t, will drop very much next turn). After looking at it in-game, I realized that we wouldn't speed up our next Great Person by more than a coupe of turns by going National Epic first. Not worth it. Although, we should definitely build NE after the forge.

- Offered Literature to Templars, as per our deal. Didn't really want to, but did.

I haven't ended the turn yet, but probably will later tonight unless someone has a request for a major change. About ~20 hours left at the moment.

Stats:

General

Current Turn:
Turn 117 - 50 AD
Turn Timer expires at approx (UTC)

Active Turn Player:
Sullla

Tech:
Construction (2t)
100% research (191 [253] beakers/turn) @ -43gpt
19/500 beakers overall

Gold
138g in treasury

Cities

Airstrip One [size 8] [guarded by Xena and Mariah]:
Forge (12t), National Epic (15t)
Infrastructure: Palace, Granary, Barracks, Library, Academy, Great Library
Great Scientist 88/200, +8 GPP/turn, due in 14t
Emphasizing food and commerce

Pink Dot [size 5] [guarded by Britney's Spears and Adria and Athena]:
Hanging Gardens (1t)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Granary, Aqueduct
Mission "Hanging Gardens" in progress

China Beach [size 5] [guarded by Ms Piggy]:
Archer (2t) [anger duration 9t]
Infrastructure: Granary, Library, Barracks

Cape Town [size 4] [guarded by Diana and Fyre Errow and Gillian and Jamie Lynn's Spears and Hannah and Christina and Aphrodite and Demeter and Affirmed]:
Maceman (2t)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Heroic Epic, Walls

Something Fishy [size 5] [guarded by Svava]:
Settler (7t) [anger duration 9t]
Infrastructure: Granary, Library, Courthouse
Planning to whip courthouse...?

Green Acres [size 4] [guarded by Robyn Hood]:
Worker (4t) [anger duration 1t and 11t]
Infrastructure: Granary, Library, Lighthouse

Mellow Yellow [size 2] [guarded by Hera]:
Library (19t) [anger duration 8t]
Infrastructure: Granary

Saxon the Beach [size 1] [guarded by Betty Hur]:
Granary (29t), Moai Statues (62t)
Infrastructure: none

Non-Combat Units

Scout [Sharon]:
Scouting out the eastern continent

Worker [Winston]:
Connecting wines at Green Acres
Roading (done!)

Worker [Bernard]:
Moving to build cottages at Airstrip One
Moving to tile (done!)

Worker [Mustapha Mond]:
Moving to Saxon the Beach

Worker [O'Brien]:
Reconnect copper at Cape Town
Mining (2t)

Worker [Helmholtz]:
Reconnect copper at Cape Town
Mining (2t)

Worker [Parsons]:
Chop forests as part of Operation Hanging Gardens
Chopping (done!)

Worker [Syme]:
Chop forests as part of Operation Hanging Gardens
Chopping (done!)

Worker [John the Savage]:
Chop forests as part of Operation Hanging Gardens
Chopping (done!)

Military Units

Galley [RBS Discovery]:
Patrolling the Channel

Axeman [Gillian]:
Guarding Cape Town (for now)
Heading to Twin Peaks eventually

Axeman [Adria]:
Guard Pink Dot

Spearman [Christina]:
Guard Airstrip One

Spearman [Christina]:
Guard Cape Town

Spearman [Hannah]:
Guard Cape Town

Spearman [Jamie Lynn's Spears]:
Guarding Cape Town (for now)
Heading to Twin Peaks eventually

Spearman [Britney's Spears]:
Guard workers at Pink Dot to keep Templar chariot honest

Horse Archer [Affirmed]:
Guard Cape Town

Chariot [Betty Hur]:
Resting and healing up in Saxon the Beach
10XP - our most heroic unit!

Chariot [Lady Godiva]:
Moving east to get intel on Imperio/Templar cities

Archer [Ms Piggy]:
Guard China Beach

Archer [Diana]:
Guard Cape Town

Archer [Billy Jean Tell]:
Exploring Imperio territory

Archer [Robyn Hood]:
Guard Green Acres

Archer [Svava]:
Guard Something Fishy

Archer [Fyre Errow]:
Guarding Cape Town (for now)
Heading to Twin Peaks eventually

Archer [Hera]:
Guard Mellow Yellow

Archer [Athena]:
Guard Pink Dot

Archer [Aphrodite]:
Guard Cape Town

Archer [Demeter]:
Guard Cape Town

Warrior [Xena]:
Guard Airstrip One

Warrior [Jennifer]:
Exploring the eastern continent

Foreign Builds from C&D

Templars
Jerusalem = (93 * (150 + 100)) / (3 * 460) = 17 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks
Damascus = (168 * (150 + 100)) / (3 * 485) = 29 shields (+16)
Infrastructure: Terrace, Barracks
Jericho = (159 * (150 + 100)) / (3 * 555) = 24 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: Walls
Acre = (90 * (150 + 100)) / (3 * 630) = 12 shields (+2)
Infrastructure: none

Some real weirdness going on with Jericho; 22 shields last turn, 2 shields this turn. The "Investigate City" cost is suspiciously high at 555 EP, despite being the closest Templar city to our capital. My hunch is that Templars have a defensive spy sitting in here, which would fit with the invisible 50-shield build we saw a couple turns back.

Imperio
Mutal = N/A, zero shields available
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Granary, Monument, Stonehenge, Oracle
Lakamha = (411 * (192 + 100)) / (3 * 741) = 54 shields (+7)
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Islamic shrine
Chichen Itza = (158 * (192 + 100)) / (3 * 700) = 22 shields (+4)
Infrastructure: Granary, Monument, Lighthouse, Barracks
Uxmal = (93 * (192 + 100)) / (3 * 759) = 12 shields (+12)
Infrastructure: Monument
Mayapan = (168 * (192 + 100)) / (3 * 747) = 22 shields (+4)
Infrastructure: Monument, Barracks
Calakmul = (166 * (192 + 100)) / (3 * 770) = 21 shields (+5)
Infrastructure: Monument

Mutal finishes a 48-58 shields build; from line of sight in the city, we can see this is a catapult. The rest of the cities are in the middle of builds; expect Lakamha to finish a war elephant next turn. Thankfully, we will have line of sight into Lakamha next turn, to eliminate any mistakes in my soldier count.

PAL
Heliopolis = (535 * (48 + 100)) / (3 * 310) = 85 shields (+11)
Infrastructure: Granary
Alexandria = (120 * (48 + 100)) / (3 * 296) = 20 shields (+10)
Infrastructure: Granary

Heliopolis still building something on the large size. No guesses as yet on Alexandria, which remains empty of any garrison unit (kinda foolish, IMO).

Rabbits
Caerbannog = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Palace, Barracks, Library, Great Wall
Digger's Burrow = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: Barracks, Monument, Granary, Walls
Phrygian = N/A, zero shields invested
Infrastructure: none

I get nothing on all three Rabbit cities. Dunno what that means, to be honest... They aren't in Anarchy. (???)


Population census:
PAL 43 (size 10,6,6,5,5,4,4,3)
RB 34 (8,5,5,5,4,4,2,1)
Imp 34 (10,7,5,5,4,3)
Ban 25 (8,8,5,3,1)
Tem 20 (6,6,5,2,1)
Rab 9 (5,3,1)


Treasury report:
Templars: 78gold (-2gpt)
Imperio: 283gold (+18gpt)
PAL: 59gold (-4gpt)
Rab: 37gold (-1gpt)
Banana: 44 (-1gpt)

[Swiss Pauli]

My guess would be that Helio is building HE, and it's probably good news that Templars are using their spy defensively, and not sending him towards A1 where he would reveal our soft underbelly.

As to Rabbits, I think mh mentioned we'd lose sight of their demographics soon, so maybe that's the reason for the loss of C&D info?

Now that we've switched to a mace in Cape Town, I'm fine with ending the turn tonight.

[T-hawk]

Defensive spies do not raise the cost of passive missions. Jericho must be behaving as advertised. +22H last turn was probably with some heavy overflow, possibly onto a doublered item. +2H this turn was probably swapping to a heavy food or specialist (Great Person) config. Jericho's investigate cost might be higher thanks to no active trade route with the city? (that's -20% cost.)

For Rabbits, no sabotage cost visible just means that all the cities completed builds last turn or swapped builds this turn. Demo visibility doesn't matter. It still shows the costs for Incite Revolt and the other city specific missions, right?

I forget, did we trade PAL Marble? If so, then Heliopolis can't be doing HE. +11 is not an even number and can't be achieved with a doubler resource.

[Dreylin]

@T-Hawk: Yep, we sent them Marble for Ivory. They'd get 250% for being Industrious, but that wouldn't get you 11 either. Forge gets a doubler so is out, which (I think) just leaves Courthouse as an option.

[Swiss Pauli]

We did trade PAL marble, but Helio has their State Religion and they're now running Org Rel, so I guess this explains the odd number.

[sooooo]

OK, empire looks good. I'm convinced by the arguments for settler before worker at SF, though because the city does not have many improved tiles it will likely go to worker or whip something next. My minor nitpick is that Mellow Yellow should really be swapped to forge. Yes library does something now, but that something is only 1 extra beaker per turn. Forge is indeed expensive but it makes sense to build it before other infrastructure for the hammer boost.

Probably more mming and deciding what to whip next turn as we grow! Did anyone notice that we are now second in points, overtaking PAL?

After HG in Pink Dot, go for a maceman? Or whip a forge?

[mostly-harmless]

Jerichos high Investigate cost is relative. In fact it was at this level since its founding. What happened, as T-Hawk pointed out, is that we now trade with Jerusalem, Constantinople & Damaskus, which significantly lowers that cost.

One new point to consider is, that we need an additional health resource very soonish. A1 has 10health at the moment, but will grow to size 10 next turn (natural & HG) and goes for a forge. The 10 health is also partially due to some forests which will be lost eventually. Interestingly the only available trading partner is Imperio with excess wheat, crab & corn. Alternatively, we get those deer at Saxon connected soonest, which is what I prefer. So Mustapha goes deer camping next. A camp and a road should be doable in time for A1's forge.

Do we have a clear vote on where the next cities goes? It is basically either a northern city or Bad Ass. Templars are currently connecting up the cows at Jericho, which we want to steal, but every turn we delay settling adds to the Templar culture we have to overcome. Jericho has only the state religion for now which gives 1cpt but is piling up culture on that cow tile for 15 turns now.

Another thing, do we want to start planning for a "Project Colossus"? If it falls to PAL again, it would be another big blow.
Urban planners, what would be the best city to attempt it, if at all? That decision might be important for the library vs. forge decision for Mellow Yellow.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Ah, one more point to bring back the suspense.
I believe us being top of the roster is irrelevant in MP when it comes to deciding who gets a wonder. I think in MP it is down to chance, when two civs finish the wonder on the same turn.
A similar situation/issue arose in another demogame I participate in.

mh

[Sullla]

Swapped Mellow to forge as requested and ended turn. If we change our minds, we can always swap back.

I looked at the map, and we really don't have any cities well positioned for a try at Colossus. Our top production centers (Airstrip One and Pink Dot) are both inland, and I don't think anyone would advocate trying for a wonder at Cape Town right now! China Beach doesn't have enough shields, and only has two remaing forests, while the other possibilities are little better.

Mellow Yellow is really our best shot, although it's a VERY long way away from the wonder right now. Since PAL, Banana, and Templars are all Industrious (cheap forges), and all have had Metal Casting for quite some time, I expect that one of them will land the wonder before we have any realistic shot. We'll make an attempt at Mellow by building Forge first, and if the wonder is somehow still out there when we finish, we can re-evaluate where we stand. I'm not about to drop everything our workers are doing in the south for such a longshot plan, however.

[Swiss Pauli]

Colossus is a bit meh for us as we're not financial, so I'd rather leave it.

As to health at A1, I wouldn't worry about that just yet, as it will only be a minor drag. If we can get a free health resource in trade, all well and good, but I wouldn't pay more than a surplus clam in return.

Unless we can get Imperio to agree a NAP, then it's a northern city for us.

[sooooo]

The HG does add a point of health to all cities so A1 will have a cap of 11 which will be plenty for a while.

Agree with Swiss about not going for Colossus. However, worse than PAL getting the wonder is if Imperio get it. Working 4-commerce coast will be some good for them.

[regoarrarr]

Continuing on the health question, we have (relatively) easy access to the HG, deer, sheep and crabs for a total of 14 health soon.

[sunrise089]

Health - hook up our own resources before trading or asking for gifts.

New settler - Bad Ass needs many units to be safe to settle.

Collosus - Agree we should try for it if it's still out there when the coastal forge finishes. Just getting it to deny the Financial/Great Lighthouse teams makes sense to me.