Turnplayer Thread #3

[mostly-harmless]

A1 will be size 8 next turn, which we can compensate for by trading wines for gems with PAL. When A1 grows to size 9 (either by HG or natural) we need a second unit in there to raise the happy cap.

mh

[Dreylin]

Sorry, I can't help out clearing up the HG plan; most of the Worker stuff I've been looking at is for the group that are heading over to Cape Town.

On that note, I do not think that O'Brien should be heading directly to the Copper - he should end this turn's movement in the un-roaded forest 1SE of Cape Town and chop. Then he & HH will reconnect the Copper - I think that only results in a single-turn delay of reconnection given the timing of HH's arrival.

[mostly-harmless]

As long as that chop goes into a Horse Archer, that might be acceptable.

mh

[Dreylin]

It would complete on t117, which I think is 1turn after we have HBR, so it could go into a HA, yes.

[Sullla]

OK, there is an absolute TON of stuff going on, so without further ado, let's begin for T114:

- Starting with the copper crisis at the Cape (ha!), here's what we're dealing with:



O'Brien has moved onto the grassland forest next to Cape Town, as was requested in one of our many threads. Helmholtz is one turn behind (also circled in yellow). They will chop that potentially dangerous tile, then move to the copper and remine it. The worker turns actually line up perfectly here:

T114: O'Brien moves to forest, Helmholtz moves towards Cape Town
T115: O'Brien chopping (3t), Helmholtz moves onto forest
T116: O'Brien and Helmholtz complete chop, 30 x2 = 60 shields into Horse Archer at Cape Town (yay overflow!)
T117: O'Brien and Helmholtz move N/NW along red arrows and begin mining copper (4t, 3t)
T118: O'Brien and Helmholtz finish copper mine (2t, done!)

Thus we can build a spear as soon as T118 if desired. The unfinished road section to the west gets finished by one of our other workers, Winston or Bernard.

- Speaking of Winston and Bernard, they are connecting our wines at Green Acres. This is an important job, as we still owe PAL a wine resource for their gems, not to mention Green Acres can get good value out of the tile yield. That job will be done next turn, and then we just have to add the road sections.

Afterwards, I plan to send one of them to Airstrip One to add more cottages, and the other one to Saxon the Beach to start improving it (we really need worker help there). On that note, Green Acres should start a desperately-needed worker as soon as we whip out its current lighthouse build (which should be... 2t, I think). Green Acres can get great value for us, building a worker at size 3 working clam/clam/wines tiles while recovering from whip anger.

- Pink was kind of a mess when I logged in, so let's have a screenshot from there as well:



We just took out the two red forests. Everything is still proceeding on time to complete the Gardens on T118, which is what I think we were planning all along! Some of the discussion has been a little confusing to follow. Anyway, we can then crank out horse archers afterwards if we feel threatened; Pink only loses two turns of post-Horseback Riding tech production. Here is the schedule we are on:

T114: 46/100 aqueduct, +15 base production, +60 from chopping = +75 total shields (as pictured!)
T115: 121/100 aqueduct = 42/300 Hanging Gardens, +15 base and +30 from chopping = 45 * 2 = +90 total shields
T116: 132/300 Hanging Gardens, +13 base * 2 = +26 total shields
T117: 158/300 Hanging Gardens, + 13 base and +60 from chopping = +73 * 2 = +146 total shields
T118: 304/300 Hanging Gardens completed

The only worker actions we have to do are move Syme NE-E, John W, and Parsons N (after he finishes chopping) and it all works out. Do not move the workers here! We should be good, but let's not have any misclicks either, m'kay?

- I swapped Airstrip One over to National Epic (25t); that number drops considerably when we work the grassland hill mines, and we'll probably want to spend at least a little time doing that rather than go all pure cottages. Since we're short on workers anyway, we can skip Airstrip One for the moment and let it work our (already-improved) grassland hill mines, while simultaneously speeding up the national wonder. Building an archer here right now is just a waste, IMO.

- China Beach finishes its barracks next turn. What do we want here next? I think courthouse (cheap) or marketplace (more useful) are the most useful options, with lighthouse (also cheap) a distant next option. My slight preference is for courthouse, as we could use the espionage points, but please weigh in with opinions.

- I don't like our current courthouse build at Something Fishy, simply because this is a city where we can and should be whipping stuff. So here's my suggested plan:



Our economy has just exploded tremendously (see below), so we can definitely afford more cities. Let's get cranking on more settlers! I would like to see us start Something Fishy on a settler, whip or double-whip it to completion, then finish the courthouse while recovering. Would someone please look into the math on this? I've requested it three times, and not gotten a response. If we continue to ignore Something Fishy, I'll just do what I think is best, and that's usually not what we want as a team!

- Mellow Yellow gets whipped on T116, roger that T-Hawk micro math.

- In other news, our economy rules! At break-even rate right now, our GNP stat is now reading about 180. That catapults us into a virtual tie with PAL and Imperio! We were previously getting 140 when going at an unsustainable deficit-fueled 100% science, while working on techs with more pre-req bonuses, and getting around 100 at sustainable rates. Our economy has nearly DOUBLED thanks to the combination of Currency and Bureaucracy!!! Just look at Saxon the Beach to see why:



This little nothing city, with zippo infrastructure, is practically paying for itself thanks to those two 3 commerce trade routes... with Rabbits, of all civs! These "intercontinental" trade routes really break the math of Civ4, allowing you to expand virtually indefinitely. Why PAL hasn't been spamming more cities, I have no idea. (Even allowing for being at war, they could have ONE city building settlers.) Furthermore, we have nearly caught up to PAL in population, and will actually shoot past them if we build the Hanging Gardens. Granted, PAL will soon have all of Rabbit land to expand into, but oh what an improvement from where we were ten turns ago! Great Scientist for an Academy in the capital in just 2 more turns, and then we will be ROARING along, folks!

- Minor stuff: I think we should run 60% science instead of 70%, as we get Horseback Riding in 2t either way, and might as well gain some small cash rather than burn away our treasury.

- I held Lady Godia for a turn, so that we can do the step-in step-out method to look into the new Templar city next turn, as suggested by mh.

- We now at least know the names of the Banana cities, due to trade routes:

Bananpolis (capital)
Banana Pudding
Banana Split
Fried Banana

There are exactly 16 cities on the Eastern continent, and we have exactly 16 trade routes right now (8 cities x 2). Perfect!

That's all for now. I'll try to have (some) stats up later tonight, and I'll mention as well that I will try to put together a "State of the Empire" post next turn for T115. That will help any lurkers (timmy827, saw you post here earlier!) get caught up. Keep the debates lively and keep the suggestions rolling in. We're gonna deal with Imperio and then make them sorry they ever messed with us!

[T-hawk]

I would like to see us start Something Fishy on a settler, whip or double-whip it to completion, then finish the courthouse while recovering. Would someone please look into the math on this?

What math do you need? That plan sounds sound to me. When we get close to whipping the settler, we can decide the exact turn to do so.

Why PAL hasn't been spamming more cities, I have no idea.

There are exactly 16 cities on the Eastern continent, and we have exactly 16 trade routes right now (8 cities x 2). Perfect!

This is why PAL doesn't need more cities. With the Great Lighthouse, they'll already have trade routes to every city on our continent. More cities would just add domestic routes.

[Swiss Pauli]

At SF, I was thinking to whip the CH and use the large overflow for a worker, as I think we need these more than another city right now.

A Walls gambit at Cape Town is an interesting move. Will it delay an attack by Imperio for lack of siege, or will they put their efforts into the EP slider and try for a revolt?

[mostly-harmless]

O'Brien has moved onto the grassland forest next to Cape Town, as was requested in one of our many threads. Helmholtz is one turn behind (also circled in yellow). They will chop that potentially dangerous tile, then move to the copper and remine it. The worker turns actually line up perfectly here:

I would have put the copper first, as the forest only becomes a potential danger a couple of turns after the DOW the earliest, while the copper is needed asap, not only for the resource but also for hammers at Cape Town.

Afterwards, I plan to send one of them to Airstrip One to add more cottages, and the other one to Saxon the Beach to start improving it (we really need worker help there).

How many workers to we need to re-connect the horses in say a 2 turns? 2 or 3 worker?

On that note, Green Acres should start a desperately-needed worker as soon as we whip out its current lighthouse build (which should be... 2t, I think).

The lighthouse was just something I had to choose after logging in . We could go worker there right now.

I swapped Airstrip One over to National Epic (25t); that number drops considerably when we work the grassland hill mines, and we'll probably want to spend at least a little time doing that rather than go all pure cottages.

I disagree with that choice. I feel we need every beaker we can get to finish construction and what not as soon as possible. Elephants will be our strongest units for the opening turns of a war. Swapping A1 from pure commerce to partial hammers and invest into a wonder is the wrong way at the moment.

China Beach finishes its barracks next turn.

Well, its a barracks we just finished and you set A1 on a wonder, not a unit. Shouldn't at least one city up there in the north west be on units? I don't see us having Betty Hur as permanent garrison for Saxon. In fact she should chase down that barb axe in the fog and move to the front lines.

I don't like our current courthouse build at Something Fishy, simply because this is a city where we can and should be whipping stuff. So here's my suggested plan:

Courthouse first makes sense. I would hold back on a settler until we see how T120 goes.

Minor stuff: I think we should run 60% science instead of 70%, as we get Horseback Riding in 2t either way, and might as well gain some small cash rather than burn away our treasury.

Yep, we should also have always some cash in reserve to buy off negative events.

mh

[ruff_hi]

Yep, we should also have always some cash in reserve to buy off negative events.

I seem to remember seeing a post at CFC's demo game about negative events. You log in, get a negative event, ctrl-alt-delete yourself out of the game (stop Civ4), log back in and no event pops up.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=310842

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, but do we as RB want to play it like this? Other teams took negative vents before (PAl & Banana - Slave revolt). If we cheat like this we might as well delay Literature to IMperio.

Here is another good point for more units at A1. Imperio might just block our army at Cape Town and rush a handfull of Horse Archers into our hinterland (A1). We even have a nice road in neutral territory for them to use. And in A1 awaits behind lots of cultural defense ... a single warrior!

mh

[sooooo]

Swapping A1 from pure commerce to partial hammers and invest into a wonder is the wrong way at the moment.

We don't really have a choice about this because we grow next turn and have no more cottages to work. We will probably work a plains mine.

However, I would still like to see an archer before HBR rather than hammers into the NE. I accept T-Hawk's point that there is no obvious NE city and that that wonder should go in the capital. However, we have pressing needs for military right now. For example, there is a barb axe wandering around the north. Betty Hurr can deal with him, but he (EDIT: she!) is our only defender of Saxon. We need an archer for saxon and another one to bust the last bit of fog. That should free Betty to go to the front line. China Beach can start an archer next turn once its barracks completes. Now would be the perfect time to build the other one at Airstrip One.

I like the idea of interrupting SF's courthouse to whip a settler.

[Dreylin]

I would have put the copper first, as the forest only becomes a potential danger a couple of turns after the DOW the earliest, while the copper is needed asap, not only for the resource but also for hammers at Cape Town.

The added reasoning for chopping the forest first is that if the Workers headed to the Copper first, they end their movement on the Forest 1S of Cape Town. Since they are going to have a non-productive turn moving there anyway, it's more efficient in the longer term to have them end on the un-roaded forest we need chopping and chop before moving on. It does only delay Copper connection by 2t, and prevents us losing Worker turns moving back onto that forest.

I join the chorus requesting that A1 switch back to Archer, I think a garrison unit for the NW is a useful sink for hammers, while we are very unlikely to be completing NE for many turns anyway as we'll switch to HA/Ele/Cat as soon as available.

Sullla: where are we taking that Settler? Do we feel militarily secure enough for Twin Peaks, or are we moving for a fogbusting Silktown to lock down the North.

[Dreylin]

- Mellow Yellow gets whipped on T116, roger that T-Hawk micro math.

Sullla; doesn't T-Hawk's post say T115 for the whip!

So the sweet spot is two turns from now (T115).

[Sullla]

Alright, great feedback! To clarify a couple of things:

- I looked at the math on moving ASAP to copper, and we get it connected on T117 that way, one turn faster. To get a dangerous forest chopped (with major shield overflow going into Cape Town, I might add) at the cost of 1 turn seemed like a no-brainer to me. The movements really add up to save a lot of time by moving to the forest first. Your mileage may vary, naturally.

- I really disagree with the notion of building archers in Airstrip One. We can crank out archers in ONE turn at Cape Town. Why would we want to spend 4-5 turns of precious production in our Bureaucracy capital on such a redundant build? Send an archer over from the Cape if we are that worried. I like specializing cities, and I don't see the value in having a commerce-heavy city build military when it can gain a very, very real benefit to our overall civ by getting National Epic going ASAP instead.

I will, of course, swap back to archer if that is the team consensus.

- Airstrip One doesn't really have a choice in tile configuration, it grows to size 8 next turn and will pick up a grassland river hill mine. I was more suggesting that we grab some hill tiles as it grows for the next 5-10 turns, rather than swapping off cottages. We definitely don't want to do that!

- I don't really like the idea of China Beach, a high-commerce low-shield city, building military next, but you guys may be right. We do need a garrison unit for Saxon the Beach, although I would keep Betty in the north for the forseeable future until we get some more border expansions up there. I would prefer to see two archers from China Beach over swapping Airstrip One to archer, however.

- We have at least three completely safe city spots in the far north, so I don't see any real reason to delay getting to work on a settler. Whipping courthouse on the final turn and letting the overflow go into settler is probably better than what I suggested, and I think we should tentatively go with that plan. Also, don't forget that we can still get trade routes from Imperio and Templars too, which will be worth decent cash.

Here is another good point for more units at A1. Imperio might just block our army at Cape Town and rush a handfull of Horse Archers into our hinterland (A1). We even have a nice road in neutral territory for them to use. And in A1 awaits behind lots of cultural defense ... a single warrior!

This is our Achilles hell. If Imperio (or Templars) actually pull this off, we are in trouble. But there are four reasons why we shouldn't worry overmuch about it:

1) Imperio hasn't shown any indication of pulling off a move this subtle.
2) Would Templars allow Imperio to move an armed force through Jericho? Every indication is that they also have a "no scouting" OB agreement.
3) Imperio would need to actually build some horse archers first, and we would see them ahead of time.
4) Worst comes to worst, we crack the whip and pop out a couple archers that way. Not to mention, Airstrip One can pull 18 shields/turn with a food deficit. Remember, it ain't easy to capture cities off humans in MP!
5) (OK, I thought of another one.) In dire straights, we drop science to 0, gold per turn goes to +80, we beg metal off another team and upgrade our warrior to spearman. Yet another potential option.

In short, I don't like us sacrificing long-term advantage for a move that's extremely unlikely to happen. Would I like another garrison unit in Airstrip One? Yes, absolutely, but there are better ways of getting one there.

[T-hawk]

We do need a garrison unit for Saxon the Beach

Why?

Saxon can't get attacked. If Saxon is ever threatened, then we will already have lost. It won't need a police unit until around size 5 or 6. Keep the fog busted and it won't have barbarian trouble either. Saxon can go nude for quite some time. It's our Beyond Naked City.

I agree on National Epic at Airstrip One. Keep the cities specialized. Cape Town probably can't crank archers fast enough for all our needs all by itself, though. Somebody else will have to chip in some units while Pink is Gardening and A1 is Epicing, and that somebody is probably China Beach.