Team Info and Contacts - Banana

[sooooo]

Looks like Donovan has shown his naivity with PAL. The deal to sell them banking for 500 gold was not a firm deal and surprise surprise they vetoed it:



I am eager to see what his email says.

[regoarrarr]

Message from Banana

Hi Realms,

So far, PAL has not agreed to our trade yet, and it looks like they are not going to do so. Because of this, I will not be able to increase tech research for Gunpowder at the moment. Right now, we are looking at 7 turns.

However, this brings up a bigger issue, which is of us fronting you two techs with no ETA in sight for Astronomy. Hopefully my past actions to this point have proven my willingness to work with your team -- we have granted you a vital strategic resource for around 35 turns, and have run a slight tech trade deficit until recently with no complaints. Going forward, I would like us to trade evenly once both parties have something to offer, which means I would need you to determine an ETA for Astronomy.

This is by no means an end to our relationship as far as I am concerned. We are likely not renewing our NAP with PAL, and will continue to side with your team in all world affairs. I am also willing to consider offering tech on a circumstancial basis (say, if Imperio gets Gunpowder), but I would still need to get something in return.

Once you have time to discuss, please let me know what this decision does to our standing agreements. I still think that it is fair for us to expect Horses in return for allowing several extensions of our Iron agreement. However, I would understand if you decided to retract your recent gifts of Silks and Wine. I would like to keep our Incense/Dyes deal intact.

Hopefully, you can understand my position on this matter, and that the decision wasn't made lightly. I wish that I had a team that I could blame this on, but I don't. Yet I am sure that we can come out of this with a workable solution for both parties. Please get back to me once you have a chance to discuss this.

Respectfully,
Donovan Zoi

[mostly-harmless]

Do we offer a full alliance including a defensive pact, should Banana be attacked?
I say yes. I would consider this whole game won, if a RB-Banana alliance rules the world.

We leave all our gifts intact and get him horses as well, as promised.

mh

[ruff_hi]

We have at least 1 knight in production that I remember from the thread reports. Do we hold on to horses until that is done and then execute the trade?

[sooooo]

A reply,

Dear Team Banana,

Believe us - if we had an eta for astronomy we would give you one! It is incredibly complicated for us to do so because it varies on many factors. I will list them:

(a) If we get the Taj Mahal. We think we will but it is not a certainty. If we don't then we'll get a lot of cash towards research. We will find this out very shortly - possibly earlier than you expect!
(b) If you trade us banking. If you trade us banking we will build a bank in our capital (which makes more commerce than the rest of our empire put together) and that will greatly affect our research rate. Also we will get access to mercantilism and that gets us about 30 base science per turn, which will be multiplied by libraries, academies etc. That's a lot of science!
(c) If we get the scientist we desire as our next GP. It currently has a very high chance (>90%) but we cannot say for sure. If we get mercantilism then that chance of a scientist increases and also the time of the GP is shortened. If we get the Taj then all of our GP points are doubled again.

Asking us to work out an eta for all of that is almost impossible. We could make up an eta but that would not be fair for this relationship that we have built upon trust. All we can say is that once (a) and (b) above have been confirmed one way or the other then we will give you an eta as soon as the figure comes off our calculator.

In summary, we do understand your concerns because you have been ahead of our research recently. That is in part due to our war, and in part making a lopsided nationalism for guilds trade to pay off the 1000 beaker gift that we promised to you.

We have not let you down in the past. When we have promised techs we have always delivered them. We will not be withdrawing our gifts of silks and wines, they are yours to help you research. We will definitely not be withdrawing our horses from you. You will have them on T154 without a doubt. A promise is a promise and we will stick with all agreed deals.

We have fronted you a tech already - Drama. We haven't received anything in return for this tech and nor have we asked for anything. We would imagine that it is in your own interest to get astronomy as soon as is possible, to build observatories, improve your navy and maybe to capture some templar cities. As we listed above, supplying us with banking now would speed that up by multiple turns.

Our capital is due to start a new build next turn. We would love to begin a bank here. We would greatly appreciate an answer to if you will supply us with banking up-front by the end of this turn.

Furthermore, we have been discussing offering a full alliance and defensive pact to you. This would involve agreeing military assistance for you if PAL turn their attentions on you after they have wiped out the rabbits.

Team Realms Beyond

[ruff_hi]

soooo - Good email. However, while I cannot put my finger why, your message would leave me slightly angry (no, too strong a word ... let me revert to British ... 'with the hump' ... am I using that correctly?) if I was Banana and I read it.

Do we know what our next tech is? If it is Astronomy, then we should include that in our email to Banana.

Looking at the email ... maybe move this part to the top and strengthening the 'we really really like you' messages a bit ...

Our Friend Banana,

We do understand your tech trade concerns because you have been ahead of our research recently. That is in part due to our war, and in part making a lopsided nationalism for guilds trade to pay off the 1000 beaker gift that we promised to you.

Firstly, let me state that we have not let you down in the past. When we have promised techs we have always delivered them. We will not be withdrawing our gifts of silks and wines, they are yours to help you research. We will definitely not be withdrawing our horses from you. You will have them on T154 without a doubt (we are monitoring our unit builds so that we are done with horse units on this turn). A promise is a promise and we will stick with all agreed deals.

Also, don't forget that we have fronted you a tech already - Drama. We haven't received anything in return for this tech and nor have we asked for anything. We would imagine that it is in your own interest to get astronomy as soon as is possible, to build observatories, improve your navy and maybe to capture some templar cities. As we listed above, supplying us with banking now would speed that up by multiple turns.

Our capital is due to start a new build next turn. We would love to begin a bank here. We would greatly appreciate an answer to if you will supply us with banking up-front by the end of this turn.

and then following with the ETA stuff on Astronomy ... might need to change some words in their re 'above' and banking.

[regoarrarr]

I would be okay with a full DP. I'd say that the chances of PAL attacking us while they still have to deal with Rabbits / Banana are lower than normal, but I could be wrong. We would need to be vigilant on our coasts.

[darrelljs]

I like sooooo's message and would send it ASAP. It makes the point of how foolish holding Banking from us would be, without explicitly saying it.

Darrell

P.S. They already know Astronomy is our next tech priority, right?

[sunrise089]

Looks good Sooooo.

I know Donovan is probably upset that PAL backed out of his deal with them, but I think his email was a little heavy handed with us. Fronting techs to an ally doesn't hurt...it isn't like tech brokering is on.

[sooooo]

OK, making Ruff's edits we have:

Dear Team Banana,

We do understand your tech trade concerns because you have been ahead of our research recently. That is in part due to our war, and in part making a lopsided nationalism for guilds trade to pay off the 1000 beaker gift that we promised to you.

Firstly, let me state that we have not let you down in the past. When we have promised techs we have always delivered them. We will not be withdrawing our gifts of silks and wines, they are yours to help you research. We will definitely not be withdrawing our horses from you. You will have them on T154 without a doubt (we are monitoring our unit builds so that we are done with horse units the previous turn). A promise is a promise and we will stick with all agreed deals.

Also, don't forget that we have fronted you a tech already - Drama. We haven't received anything in return for this tech and nor have we asked for anything. We would imagine that it is in your own interest to get astronomy as soon as is possible, to build observatories, improve your navy and maybe to capture some templar cities. As we listed above, supplying us with banking now would speed that up by multiple turns.

Our capital is due to start a new build next turn. We would love to begin a bank here. We would greatly appreciate an answer to if you will supply us with banking up-front by the end of this turn.

Believe us - if we had an eta for astronomy we would give you one! It is incredibly complicated for us to do so because it varies on many factors. I will list them:

(a) If we get the Taj Mahal. We think we will but it is not a certainty. If we don't then we'll get a lot of cash towards research. We will find this out very shortly - possibly earlier than you expect!
(b) If you trade us banking. If you trade us banking we will build a bank in our capital (which makes more commerce than the rest of our empire put together) and that will greatly affect our research rate. Also we will get access to mercantilism and that gets us about 30 base science per turn, which will be multiplied by libraries, academies etc. That's a lot of science!
(c) If we get the scientist we desire as our next GP. It currently has a very high chance (>90%) but we cannot say for sure. If we get mercantilism then that chance of a scientist increases and also the time of the GP is shortened. If we get the Taj then all of our GP points are doubled again.

Asking us to work out an eta for all of that is almost impossible. We could make up an eta but that would not be fair for this relationship that we have built upon trust. All we can say is that once (a) and (b) above have been confirmed one way or the other then we will give you an eta as soon as the figure comes off our calculator.

Furthermore, we have been discussing offering a full alliance and defensive pact to you. This would involve agreeing military assistance for you if PAL turn their attentions on you after they have wiped out the rabbits.

Team Realms Beyond

To be sent out this evening - make any more suggestions in the next 4 hr please.

[Dreylin]

I prefer Ruff's re-ordering: to put his "hump" another way, the original message comes over with starting with a lot of waffling and excuses which is followed by sucking up and "we love you"s. Better to address his concerns first and then waffle on why we currently have no ETA on Astronomy.

The final sentence of the third paragraph of Ruff's re-order would need to be removed, also in point (c) we should spell out why the Scientist is important (for bulbing Optics) so Banana isn't possibly left wondering.

It's understandable that he's getting concerned about our dealings since he's just been burned by PAL.

EDIT: ninja'd by Sooooo, but my comments still stand.

[Swiss Pauli]

I like the content of sooooo's email, but I think ruff is right about the order.

One thing I'd change is the way we refer to Drama, as it sounds like we're lecturing him. Rephrase to something like 'We shipped you Drama as a gesture of goodwill as we realised we'd be the one requiring techs up front during the war'.

[ruff_hi]

... let me revert to British ... 'with the hump' ... am I using that correctly?

And to answer my own question ...

get the hump (British informal) - to get annoyed or upset with someone because you think they have done something bad to you "Tony got the hump because he thought we hadn't invited him to the party".

[T-hawk]

Man, all this waffling makes me want some syrup!

Let's just work out that dang ETA! We love crunching numbers! Banana is our only ally and we're refusing his request just because it's too complicated?

I can't log in right now, but I'll work through several scenarios tonight. We should work it out like this for Banana:

1. Astronomy ETA for best predictable scenario (no Taj, no Banking, lightbulb Optics)
2. Banking now would save X turns (via Mercantilism and A1 bank)
3. Taj would save X turns
4. Missing the Great Scientist would cost X turns on manual research of Optics

[sooooo]

I disagree, I think sending him an eta with no banking and no taj would seriously depress him and not get us techs upfront. It depresses me even thinking about how long astronomy would take under those conditions. We break even at something like 30% science and that's with bureaucracy. Sending him "Yeah, astronomy at our current rate will take 35 turns unless we get the Taj. But it's probably more than that once we go into nationalism. Can we have banking now?" would be mega-bad.

I stick with saying that we will get an eta to him as soon as we can. We can even tell him the date we will finish the Taj Mahal on (just 3 turns away) and say that he can 100% have an eta on that turn.