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DIPLOMACY ver 2.1 Hosted by Harel

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  • DIPLOMACY ver 2.1 Hosted by Harel

    <u>Diplomacy summary 2.1.1</u> - By Harel Eilam ( )

    Slight modifications to cover all the suggestions/fixs.
    * Add general intel: see 4.4, 3.1.15.
    * fixed.
    * 5.6 fixed.
    * 6.5 improved.
    * To Tanis: i think that the "Autonomy" option covers what you wish.
    * Added names to the honor lists.


    1. Pacts
    2. Treaties
    3. Special operations
    4. Trade
    5. Diplomatic option/screen
    6. Negotations and the AI
    7. Diplomatic relations
    8. Atrocities and complaints
    9. Long memory
    10. Minor/Major AI

    1. Pacts

    A pact is an agreement between three of more players ( AI or humans ) to work toghter under the same ground. The most common pact is a militarial where several players can unite their own forces, but other pacts also exist, a trade, science and diplomatacy pacts.

    1.1 Diplomatic pacts are the most basical ones. They serve is a formal meeting house for many civs, but rarely hold any real power. It acts much like the UN, or SMAC concuil. AI have a very good chance of joining a diplomatic pact, more then any other form of pacts.
    1.1.2 A player may address a diplomatic pact with the following things: Expel a member ( only if he commited to a serious atrocity ). Maybe this can be only temporerly? Suggest a new member. Suggest a strike ( form of limited war ) or a player which commitied a serious atrocitiy. Suggest a full scale war, but only on a player which commited genocide. Signing a global trade treaty ( bonus to trade ). Electing a pact leader ( like SMAC concuil leader ). Finanacing a global project ( like in SMAC ). Ask for embargo on a player ( commited minor/major atrocities ). Call for an open debate ( chat, when caller set the topic and talks first ). Sign any of the following treaties: 2.4.1, 2.4.2., 2.4.3, 2.4.4. A united wonder project for all the members of the pact ( see 2.3.2 ). Ask to strip a player of Veto power ( see 1.7 ). Demand a player ( in the pact or outside ) to make peace. This could be further induce with an aultimetum: sign peace in X turns, or we declare war on you. Ask pact to re-evalute borders: diplomatic pacts can advise on borders, and delcare that one nation must pass X land to the other side. If not, the pact may declare war on the refuser. Demand cease-fire: the pact can demand a cease-fire between nations, and send force to inforce it. Establish de-militarilized zone: the pact eract a zone where only her military forces may enter. Any other force may be destroyed. Give autonomy: the pact may demand a nation which conquered an entire civ to give here autonomy, in a vassal form ( see 7.1 ). Condemn player: if a player has commited atrocities, you can suggest a global complaint against him ( more hostility ). suggest a global donation to the pact: everyone must donate X units ( see ). Call for peace meeting in a big war ( see 5.8.10 ). Ask to save a civ which is under un-fair attack ( see ) Ressurect dead civs: the UN charter can assign a city which belongs to some of the members ( he could volunteer maybe, for extra repution ). The city then becomes the first city of a now dead race ( consider the jewish recreation on Israel ).
    1.1.3 The diplomatic pact can either be created in reserved to specific members, like in the other pacts, or can be like the UN/SMAC concuil: it's automaticly created and all civ's around the world are joined. If it's a universal pact, then and can't exist.
    1.1.4 Should the diplomatic pact be resereved to only when you have the UN wonder?
    1.1.5 Just joining the pact should gives you a small bonus ( if, unlike, it's a pact with admition and membership ). Maybe +% to diplomatic realtions?
    1.1.6 Should it be reserved to only democracies? If true, what happens when a member changes it's goverement type AFTER he joined? Is he automaticly expeled, or it there a vote?
    1.1.7 The UN shouldn't be a wonder, or it should be modified, in the following options: Several players reach a certain tech level. A certain player discovers "modern politics". it's available right from the start. No certain nation builds the UN wonder, but several nations toghther. The UN wonder can't be destroyed, and if it can't, it should be able to be rebuilt. The UN should be a wonder, with a large upkeep. If the upkeep isn't payed, the UN is shut-done. Any civ that pays for the UN unkeep ( by donating or by owning it ), has a large repution bonus ( see 7..5 ).
    1.1.8 A player can donate forces ( maybe only temporarily? ) to the pact. Those units will be used by the AI to enforce the decisions of the pact.
    1.1.9 Maybe the UN can automaticly appear after a large-scale global war?

    1.2 Military pact is the most used pact there is. It's a union of players for a military might and united protection.
    1.2.2 Automaticly, all members of a military pact can't attack any other member without breaking the pact. Similar to NATO.
    1.2.3 A player may address the concuil with the following things: Suggest a new member. Expel a member ( requires only a vote ). Declare a war ( on a player which is not in thr pact ). Sign any of the following treaties with any specific member: 2.2.1, 2.2.2, 2.2.2, 2.2.3, 2.2.4, 2.2.5, 2.2.6 All the treaties from may be signed globely: for example, 2.2.2 means all member share intel, 2.2.3 means all members share some units, etc. 2.2.4 can't be signed globely, but 2.2.5 means all members will pool thier resources to create a single, unified project. Designate target: when a war was declared by the pact on a single enemy, you may suggest a specific target for the pact to concentrate. Summon war meeting: similar to
    1.2.4 All members in the pact must be allied to one another. If not, joining the pact automaticly allies you with all the others.

    1.3 Emergency pact: emergency pact is similar to a militarial pact. It's created to the sole purpose of destroying a specific enemy. The pact automaticly disolve when the enemy is destroyed, or peace is signed.
    1.3.2 the only possible actions you can make in an emergency pact is to call for new members, direct the assault ( see ), and call for a war meeting ( see ). The treaties can be signed by the normal diplomacy channel, but not via the pact screen.
    1.3.3 If one side of the pact makes peace with the designated enemy, then all sides of the pacts sign peace with him.

    1.4 Science pact: Science pacts are a group of nations that share their intellectul knowladge between themselfs.
    1.4.1 Players may suggest the following things to the concuil: Add new member. Expel a member ( requires only a vote ). Signing any of the following treaties: 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, when 2.1.3 and 2.1.4 can be suggested as a global effort.
    1.4.2 All members automaticly sign 2.1.1 between themselfs.
    1.4.3 Beyond the bonus that is recieved via, all members get a +1% per member to thier total research points ( for example, 10 members, not including yourselfs, will give you +10% to your RP output ).
    1.4.4 All members in the pact must be in peace with one another.

    1.5 Trade pact: or an economic pact, a union of nation for better profit margin.
    1.5.1 You may ask the concuil to do the following things: Add new member. Expel a member ( requires only a vote ). Suggest any of the following treaties: 2.3.1, 2.3.3, 2.3.4, 2.3.5, 2.3.7, 2.3.8 to a certain player or offer to the highest bidder. You may offer to share a global wonder ( see 2.3.2 ) to all the members, or a specific one. Demand a monopoly ( see 2.3.6 ) from all the members, or a specific one. Ask for sancations on a specific player ( outside the pact ).
    1.5.2 All players must be at peace with one another. All players gets +1% to trade profit for every member in the pact ( not including the player ).

    1.6 All pacts ( with the possible exception of the diplomatic pact, see ), are created by at least two members. The creator, which is considered the leader of the pact, send a request to the second party. Under agreement, a pact is formed. The pact may then be expanded with further members.
    1.6.1 Should the total number of pacts be limited?
    1.6.2 A player must not be a leader of any more then one pact, but he may a member in how many he wishes. A possible solution to 1.2.1?
    1.6.3 Should the establishment cost a certain fee?

    1.7 Should membership in a pact cost a certain fixed fee?

    1.8 Is leaving the pact cause some damage? Pay the other members some fixed fee?

    1.9 Is expeling members should be temporily or permenant? In case of diplomatic pacts ( which can only expel a member if he commited atrocities ), should he be able to join after X turns?

    1.10 You should be able to have "secret" pacts. All considering, it can only be seriously used in military combat, as trade and science pacts automaticly recieve too much attention. A "secret" pact won't be informed, or shows in your civ info. But it should cost considerbly more then "normal" pacts.

    1.11 Veto power is in the hands of the pact founder, and maybe the biggest nations in the pact, around 10-20% of them. Veto can be cast to over-rule any decisions, but it does cause some hostality toward you from the oppisition. Veto can be re-overruled with a 66% vote in the oppisition. Vote power can be also stripped with a 66% vote.

    2. Treaties

    2.1 Science treaties: Can be signed via the Science pact ( see 1.1.4 ), or via the diplomacy screen when the diplomatic realtions are atleast peaceful.
    2.1.1. Science treaty: an agreement which gives both sides +% to science output.
    2.1.2 Research treaty: Side A pays side B money, and side B in exchange gives all new technology he researched.
    2.1.3 Tech treaty: Both sides pool their RP togther and research a specific tech. After it's discovered, the pooling ends.
    2.1.4 Mutual research: Both sides share all new technology they accquire by research.

    2.2 Militarial treaties : Can be signed via the Military pact ( see 1.1.2 ), or via the diplomacy screen only when you are allied with the other side.
    2.2.1 Intelligence treaty: You may not spy on other side, and you both share all reports on other hostile nations. You can even pool toghter your intel to sabatoge and espionage toghter.
    2.2.2 Survlience treaty: shared maps and all known enemy units location.
    2.2.3 Defence treaty: both sides position some military units in each other cities for protection.
    2.2.4. Design contract: Side A pays Side B to design and build a prototype of a unit. Side B gets 10% of the cost. This tready can only work if: You have a unit workshop like SMAC. A certain idea in the unit section will be included: that the stats of the prototype units will be better the higher your tech and the more money and time you invest in the development. Side B can't, however, construct the design himself unless side A sells it to him.
    2.2.5. United project: Side A and side B both design a prototype toghter ( similar to treaty 2.2.4 ). Both pool resources and the end product is available to both of them.
    2.2.6 Lend units: Side A pays side B, and recieve several military units for it's use, for a limited time. Those units can't however, attack the original owner cities or land.
    2.2.7. Right of passage: side A may pass and refuel at side B bases.

    2.3. Trade treaties : Can be signed via the Trade pact ( see 1.1.5 ), or via the diplomacy screen when the diplomatic realtions are atleast peaceful.
    2.3.1 Construction contract: Side A pays money to Side B, by ordering construction of several units. Side B select a city, which then invest all money to speed-up production of the required units. Side B get 10% of the construction cost. ( Used when you have a good construction ratio in one city, mainly because of a good wonder ).
    2.3.2 United wonder: Both sides may construct a wonder. This treaty may only work for wonders that effect society at general ( and not only give tech [ darwin voyage ], a benefit to a certain city or a certain continent ). They pick a city where it's built: but the location doesn't matter since it effect all cities. All cities gives 10% of both nations of there labor to build the wonder. The two nations split the maintance cost. IMPORTANT! Also applies to star ships.
    2.3.3 Hired workers: Side A pays side B to gain worker support. Side A select a city, and side B also. Half of all the labor force in side B cities is passed, for the duration of the treaty, to side A city.
    2.3.4 Port contract: Side A pays side B to build a harbor/dock at his land for refuel.
    2.3.5. Trade passage: Side B allows side A to build trade routes over his land, but he gets 10% of all trade income.
    2.3.6 Monopoly: Side A ask side B to only buy a certain item from him ( used in a commodity system, see economics/trade ).
    2.3.7. Funded trade: Side A pays side B to build some caravans and establish a trade route with another civ that normally he can't because he has no contact of way to her. Side B gets 10% of the income.
    2.3.8 Development area: Side A pays side B for the automated "rent" of some of this settlers. Those settlers then go, and build the job they are hired for: "build a road from here to there", "make farms", etc. Very useful when needs to clean a lot of pollution after a massive nuclear strike. If the public works idea from CtP is added, then side A can "buy" work points from side B for a sum, and use it himself.

    2.4. Agreements: Can be signed via the Diplomacy pact ( see 1.1.1 ), or via the diplomacy screen when the diplomatic realtions are atleast not of war.

    2.4.1 Forbiden weapons: Both nations can agree not to use a weapon that is not classified as a nuke or illegal. For example, both nation can agree not to use Catapults, IBCM or tanks. You may also request that only a certain side won't use this tech. ( Example: in startrek, the federation agreed not to used clocking technology of any sort ).
    2.4.2 Limited arms: Both sides agree not to use an illegal weapons.
    2.4.3 Free air: Both sides agree that be "pollution-safe" after X turns. Meaning, the popultion level must not raise above Y level, or the civ is fined ( forcing the civ to hurry up and build dams, solar panels and recycling systems ).
    2.4.4 No-nuke: both sides shell not build any nuclear missiles, subs or power plants.

    3. Special operations

    Special operations are the product of special units. In civ III, those were the Diplomat and the spy. However, there is a dispute on which operations should go to each unit, and some suggested even new types of special units. Therefor, I divided this section into two: one listing all the possible operations, and the other all the units and suggested things they can do ( with all the disputes ).

    3.1.1 Peaceful operations: those operations can be done at any time, with little danger of discovery, or damage if caught. Investigate city: allows the player to see, for one turn, the management of the enemy city. The entire city radii, what building it has, and the popultion distribution. Establish ambsassy ( serves to give you key statistics on enemy civ every turn ). Military status: see the positions of all the units which belog to the city, even those that are outside in the field right now. Steal map: gain the empire map. Without tile improvements or units locations. Get secret intel: see 4.4.

    3.1.2 Hidden opeations: those operations can't be done against an ally which you signed an espionage treaty with. It's moderatly dangerous, and may create hostility toward you if you are caught. Sway away unit: pay X amount, and the targeted enemy unit become yours. The expreince level of the operator increase the chance, by high unit morale, exp and proper SE options reduce the chance. Only for Infantry, or other cheap units. If it's a costly unit, its consideres a "war-time operations" ( see 3.1.3 ). Also, it's only applies for manned unit. For missiles, look at Steal technolgy. Steal blue-print: get the design of a certain unit ( if the project idea is used, see units thread ). Steal money: the cost of operations must always be higher then what is gained by the process. The advantge is that it drains the treasure of the enemy. Still goods: for a certain turn, a certain amount of shields from the enemy city is moved to your nearest city ( or spy home city ), and boost production. Damage unit: reduce unit health by 50%, and cripple it ( can't move for X turns ). The morale level of the unit is also reduced to the lowest level ( not exp, however ). The operator unit is destroyed. Cause revolt: has a low chance the city will revolt. Still cheaper and with higher chance then a succesful bribing. Nuclear deployment: see the positions of all the nukes in the civ, or atleast parts. Rescue operator: if an operator has failed in it's mission, it caught and may be rescued for X turns. Donate to terrorists: create an AI raider spy which will work against the city itself. Reduce the danger from yourself, but it cost a lot and the terrorist is less capale then your own operator. Donate to criminal ( see economics thread for pirates ): you may donate money which goes directly to the pirates AI, which can then harrass the enemy even more. Raid trade route: steal a low amount of money off any trade routes, or caravans, moving near you.

    3.1.3 War-time operations: those operations can only be done against an enemy with you are atleast in cease-fire with. If caught, it will move you directly to war. Bribe a city: pay X amount, and the city is yours. However, you can't bribe a city which has military units in it, and the more resilent the enemy civ is ( set by her social engineering options ), the bigger the change the operation will fail alltogher. Cost of bribing, and chance of mission acomplishment also depends on the number and quality of the military units in the city. Nuke a city: acts just like a nuke hit the city, however with less pollution ( more advance bomb, if it's that small ), and bypassing SDI defence. However, a key observation was made: the cost of nuking a city must be higher then the cost of a normal nuke ( reasonable, isn't it? ). Pollute/Poison water: reduce city popultion. Destroy city building. Steal nuke/missile: allows you to steal any un-maned that are sitting in a city ( like missiles and nukes ). Kill nation leader ( only in capitol city ). Throws the entire nation to revolt, for a turn or two. Destory trade route: destroy a trade route of the enemy, and kill all caravans on it. Plant virus: plant a virus that spreads along the trade routes. Damage is set by the medical level fo the attacked civ.

    3.2.1 Some claim that since operators are a single man, or a very small group, it should require no support and cause no unhappiness to the popultion when outside city radii. Ofcourse, this could make spies too powerful.
    3.2.2 Spies ( or other, fiting operators ) should have one or more of the following abilities/powers: A good line of sight ( 2 ). Quick movement. Hiding: can only be found by scouts and other spies. Use enemy railraods ( considering that the bug from civ II would dis-allow forgien countries to use your own railroads in normal conditions ). Can board enemy transporters un-noticed ( unless there is a scout on the ship ), and requires 0 cargo capacity on your own carriers ( but only for a single operators ).
    3.2.2 The suggested special operators are: Spys: for most of the "hidden operations ( see 3.1.2 ). Diplomat: for embassies and bribing cities. Sabatour: for all the "war-like" operations ( see 3.1.3 ).
    3.3 It was suggested that you will give the operators instructions, and not the direct assignment. Meaning? For example, you can tell your spy to: "recon around ( X,Y ) for X turns, then proceed to city X where you will bomb Y, and continue to bomb the following X city improvements, until you return to your home city of X."
    3.4 If an operator has fail in it's mission inside a city, it's caught, and unless rescued ( see 3.1.17 ), there is a good chance there will be a security breach ( gives away maps with combat units positions, techs, etc. )
    3.5 Should the entire intel process by automated? You spend money on intel, and all operations are done automaticly? If so, they are several options:
    3.5.1 The computer automaticly build the operators, assign them to missions and proceed.
    3.5.2 The computer creates and control the units, but you assign them missions ( also see 3.3 ).
    3.5.3 You have no operator units, which requires too much micro-management anyway. You have a "generic" intel screen, which you assign missions and spend money, but you don't use units: you just have basics chance of sucess/fail.

    4. Trade

    4.1 Single-time trade: this form of trade is a single time exchange of goods between two sides. Every trade process has two sections: "give" and "get". Ofcourse, it's reverse for every other side. To make it clear here, "A" will define what side A gives to side B, or what side B gets from side A, and "B" define what side A wants from side B, or what side B gives to side A. This trade can also apply for gifts and requests, where only one side is filled. You may replace any of the following things in single-time trade:

    4.1.1 Land ( a rectangle of land )
    4.1.2 Cities
    4.1.3 Money
    4.1.4 Units
    4.1.5 Technology
    4.1.6 Resources
    4.1.7 Treaty ( sign an alliance with me, and i will give you 50 crdits and steam engine, tech, for example )
    4.1.8 Politics ( see 5.8. For example: cancel your alliance with X, and I will give you Y )
    4.1.9 Fixed transfer: see 4.2 for extra details. You can create the following suggestion: sign an alliance with me, and i will give you 20 food units for 25 turns.
    4.1.10 map information. The entire map, or a certain region. Also, you can get, buy and trade with other nations map ( "I have the Egyptian map" ). The maps don't include tile improvements or military units location.
    4.1.11 Info: sell enemy military units deployment, civ status and city information.
    4.1.12 Protoype design: sell a design ( see 2.2.4 )
    4.1.13 Agreement to peace meeting settelement ( see 5.8.10 ). A mediator might ask a single nation, alone, discertly, to support his peace meeting. For example: "I will give you 50 credits and sign alliance with you, if you give me 2 units and support my peace meeting".
    4.1.14 General Intel: see section 4.4. You can sell it or trade for some other intel, etc.

    4.2 Agreements/Contracts/loans: this section describe how to create a fixed agreement. X items will be replaced by Y items every turn, for infinite time ( or a fixed amount of time ). It can also describe tribute. The following things can be exchanged:

    4.2.1 Money. This also applies to loans. For example, a loan looks like this: you give me 1000 credit right now, and I give you 20 credits per turn, for 60 turns ( intersts ).
    4.2.2 Resources
    4.2.3 Technology access: a very intersting suggestion that also relates to the technology thread. You can grant the other side only limited access to the technology, and not full use ( giving it to him ). He would only be able to use the applications of it, and won't allow to research like he has it ( a technology shelf ). Nor would he keep the technology after you stop sharing it with him. For example, if you share gunner powder with him, he could build muskterees, but that will stop once you stop sharing it with him. Also, the effects of gunner powder ( like ending the effects of wonders and buildings ) won't apply on the other side.
    4.2.4 Food
    4.2.5 Units: give X units every turn. Genralzied amounts. See 4.3 for extra details.
    4.2.6 Design access: similar to 4.2.3, only it grants a limited access to a certain unit design.

    4.3 when offering a trade offer, you can also talk in "general" numbers. A general number of units can appear like this:
    "Sign an alliance with me, and I will give you some units".
    Where units can be generalizied in the following ways:
    4.3.1 Some units
    4.3.2 Some military units
    4.3.3 Some naval units
    4.3.4 Some frigate class "B" units
    4.3.5 X units ( fixed number )
    4.3.6 X mililtary units
    4.3.7 X naval units
    The other side will then select the number and type of the offer.

    4.4 General Intel: Apply only to AI's. General intel is the classified, general information that is kept quiet. Like, who the emeperor is sleeping with, home location, and other such stuff. Intel can be sold to other empires, or used by you to leverage on diplomatic dicussion. By using the intel you can increase your chance the AI will agree to what you say ( see also 5.14 for extra info ).

    5. Diplomatic screen

    Here are the following options on the diplomatic screen. Check out the trade section ( 4 ), for further details.

    5.1 Ask for treaty ( if you don't want it via the trade screen. Treaties and diplomatic level ).

    5.2 Give gift ( add something to "give" section )

    5.3 Ask/Demand/Force something ( add something to "get" section, and choose attitude ).

    5.4 Offer trade ( add somethin to the "give" and "get" section ).

    5.5. Offer trade agreement ( a contract, see 4. Also applies to loans )

    5.6 Declare war / break alliance/unity. If an emperor refuse to talk with you, you still can declare war on him ( the only option opens to you ).

    5.7 Complain ( see 8.1 )
    5.7.1 You also have complaints that are not atrocity relating. They are available only when it's appriopite: for example, when the other civ army is really bigger then yours, etc. You can complain the following ( see 6.7 for explantion ). When you are complaining, you can choose an attitude ( polite, angry, and threat. A threat is different from angry that if the other side doesn't replay to your threat, you automaticly declare war on him ). Side B is too big. Side B military might is too big. Side B is expanding too quickly Side B is spying too much Side B is trying to get a military edge ( technology ) Side B is trace-passing on your land

    5.8 Politics: this is a large section. It contains all the options that regards to other players, not just you too. For any request here, it opens a trade screen. You might add something as a gift "sign peace, and i will give you X". The other side might responds in a bigger request ( see 6.2 ).
    5.8.1 Offer new member to pact. If you are both members of a pact, you can recommend a new member here.
    5.8.2 Expel a member: if you are both members of a pact, here you can recommend the expelation of a certain other member.
    5.8.3 Offer new pact: suggest your ally to add you, and form a new pact. See pact section ( 1 ), for limitions and costs.
    5.8.4 Ask for peace: ask side B to sign peace with side C.
    5.8.5 Declare war: ask side B to declare war on side C ( emergency pact, see 1.1.3 ).
    5.8.6 Ask for Embargo: ask side B to cancel all trade with side C.
    5.8.7 Ask to break alliance: ask side B to cancel his alliance/unity with side C.
    5.8.8 Ask for side B to complain to side C on something he did to you ( see 8 )
    5.8.9 Pass a msg to side C: write a msg that you can pass to side C. Useful if you didn't yet contact side C, he became un-reachable, or refues to talk with you.
    5.8.10 Call for a peace meeting ( see 9.4 ): you might ask one of the sides of the war to call for a war meetings with all sides, so a peace meeting can take place. This only relates to wars with more then three players in it. In it, every side shows it's demands for peace ( like a complex give/get trade menu ), and the meeting caller try to balance those things out. Gives good repution to the meeting caller. The war meetings will exist for several turns, until settles. Maybe you should a different page which list all the current available peace meetings?

    5.9 Surrender to / Join second side ( see 7.1 )

    5.10 Offer surrender/membership: offer the nation to be spared if she joins you, or a full membership ( see 7.1 ).

    5.11 Ask to talk with the emperator ( multi-player only ): free chat.

    5.12 Cancel any treaty

    5.13 Ignore: you can ignore a player for as long as you want.

    5.14b Use Intel: use intel you gained by your spys or by buying it from other empires to gain a diplomatic bonus for the next disucusion when asking for things ( land, tribute, etc. ).

    6. Neogtions and the AI

    6.1 A very useful option is the option to "screen-save", either map images or statisics, and send them or show them in your negotions. For example, you might show a player the number of your techs when you are trying to convince him to join a science pact with you, a military formation when you want to scare off an enemy to give you credit, and other very nice things.

    6.2 Interaction: this is probaly the most important thing. Diplomatic connections should be a prologed, deep, realistic system of responses. Meaning, that the other side will respond to your request/gift/demand/trade with an answer of he's own, and then you can respond to his, and him to you, until a settlement will be reached. It will make trade negotations much more realistic. Here is a details explantions on how this works:

    The numbers after the comments shows with sections is the appriopate responses to this responses.
    * - present long memory ( see 9.2 ).
    ** - allows "regret" ( see 6.2.9 ).
    A - What side A offer to give side B, or what side B gets from side A.
    B - What side A wants/demands from side B, or what side B gives to side A.
    It's assumed that negotion starter is side A.

    6.2.1. <U>Comments on demand:</u>
    "We are more then happy to give it to you". Hand over requested items.
    "We will give you want you want, but we won't forget this." -*- Hand over requested items.
    "Maybe if you would add this..." Add to "A" (6)
    "We can't give you this, but maybe you will approve of this" Change "B" (6)
    "Sadly, this is impossible". Cancel demand.(5)
    "How dare you! We wish no more connection with you". -**- Cancel all treaties and drop to cease-fire. End demand.(5)
    "not only that we will not give you this, but we shell destroy you also!" -**- declare war.
    6.2.2 <u>Comments on request:</u>
    "We are happy to help our friends." Hand over requested items.
    "Sadly, we can't give you what you ask". Cancel request.(7)
    "We can't offer you this, but maybe you will like..." Change "B" (8)
    "Maybe if you just could..." Add to "A" (8)
    6.2.3 <u>Comments to trade-request:</u>
    "We gladly accept. A fair deal". commence with trade.
    "Maybe if you could just add this..." Add to "A" (8)
    "Can't give you this, but phrhaps..." Change "B" (8)
    "We have a new agreement in mind..." Reset "A" and "B" (8)
    "We are wounded that you can even think about cheating us like this!" -*- Cancel trade offer.(7)
    6.2.4 <U>comment on gift:</u>
    "We gladly accept your kind gift". Accept gift.
    "Sadly, we must refuse". Cancel gift.
    6.2.5 <u>Comments on refual of demand:</u>
    "You dare refuse us?! This would not be forgotton". -*- cancel demand.
    "For this insult, we cancel our relations with your people". -**- Cancel all treaties, end talk.
    "What?! You shell die for this insult!" -**- Declare war.
    6.2.6 <u>Comments on new-offer after demand:</u>
    "We are not here to trade with you! But it's acceptable". Accpet new offer.
    "You will also grant us... and then we will spare you". Add to "B" (1)
    "We will say this no more! Give us what we want!" Return trade status to original one. Re-demand. (1)
    "Very well then. Bit we will watch you." Cancel demand. More hostile.
    "You think we wish to bargain with you? You will die!" -**- Declare war.
    6.2.7 <u>Comments on refusal of trade/request offer:</u>
    "Very well then. Consider our offer invalid." cancel offer.
    "What if we also add this..." Add to "A" (2).
    "We ask you kindly, and you refused us. This will not be forgotton." -*- cancel offer.
    6.2.8 <u>Comments on change of trade/request offer:</u>
    "Very well then. Consider our offer invalid." cancel offer.
    "Maybe you can also include this" Add to "B" (3)
    "We can't give you this, but what about..." Change "A" (3)
    "You refused our fair offer? This will not be forgtotton." -*- cancel offer.
    6.2.9 ** Regrets: when a certain side says something like ""You think we wish to bargain with you? You will die!", it has ** after it. Meaning, that the other side has an option to regret. For the response after it, and only then, you may respond in "very well then, we will give you what you want". If you choose not to regret, the threat will automaticy take place ( the declaration of war, or cancelation of all treaties ).

    6.3 The AI should not have secret information. When negotating, or ask for items, the AI shouldn't know exactly how much money, or what tech you have. He should ask generaly "give me some cash and some technology! ( see 4.3 for generalization ). He shouldn't also keep demanding tribute from you: tone down the amount of demands by the computer.

    6.4 The AI needs to think about survival before winning. Therefor, he won't attack you when he has no chance of winning, and defy you for long if you are a lot stronger then him.
    6.4.1 Maybe you should have in the beggining of the game the option to choose from a "realistic" computer to a "win" AI. A realistic AI will only attack you when he can afford too, a "win" AI will always think of the win, like the AI from civ II.

    6.5 The AI should be influanced by public and world opinion. If a certain player is very unpopular by the world, even if he is his best friend, it could strain on thier own diplomatic relations ( see 7.4 ). Goverement type should also effect the AI approch: democracies should automaticly like each other, and almost never declare war on one another. A democracy should also be hostile to a despotic emeparor.

    6.6 It's fun to have civ-specific speech and conversation, like in SMAC. Every civ should have a slightly different speechs, considering the personalty of the leader, nation and gov type. I can just see Nepolean hailing for france: "You think our republic is short! We shell show you who is taller!" Hmm...

    6.7 I would like to scream back at the AI! You know what I mean. For example, if an AI blames you for spying ( frame ), you can replay "Bloody hell it's not me! And if you don't belive me, maybe you want to belive this IBCM, eh?". Also, the AI keeps blaming you for "you expand too much", bla bla bla, and even declare war on you. Why can't I do that? I want to tell him he's too expanding to much also!

    6.8 The AI should be peace loving too. A peace-keeper civ, like Lal from SMAC, will call for peace meetings herselfs ( see 5.8.10 ), lobby against atrocities, and more. The point is, don't keep just the players in the deep diplomacy: the AI should have intersts also.
    6.8.1 This also means the AI will help you, just it would have helped other AI's, in case of an evil attacker. If someone is nuking you ( atrocity ), the other civ should rally to your cause and attack him just as they would have attacked you if you were using nukes. Same thing when the rule of un-fair conduct is done ( see, or ). The AI, and diplomatic pact, should be just as helpful to you if you are fighting a hopeless cause then against you if you were the attacker.

    6.9 The AI should evolve over-time, changing he's tribute. For example, a militristic leader incharge of a nation that keeps losing, might turn more peaceful along the time.

    7 Diplomatic realtions

    7.1 Surrender effect: when a nation surrenders to you, when you choose to accept it membership proposel or she accepted your offer, when you conquered the entire nation or when you conquered just a part but the rest of the nation is destroyed, you have a decision to make on what to do with the civ ( or the part of the civ you have ). The AI should also keep thinking about breaking-free ( unless he's a member ). So, when you have no military units in the distance of two turns or more away, or he can outnumber your forces atleast two to one, he revolts. All of the nations, at the same time. This will keep conquers on there's toes
    You have the following options:

    7.1.1 Vassal: Vassal nations still keep there autonomy, but gives you a fixed tribute, all thier technology, and are allways allied with you. They are still AI controlled and have thier own army. However, they are reasonably happy ( if you don't tax them too high ), and won't rebel too often. ( +30% unrest ).

    7.1.2 Annix: The entire nations becomes part of your own empire, just like any other city. However, if it's not a membership addition ( a conquered nation ), the popultion of the city will be vary unhappy and will convert very slowly. They will remain unhappy and the corruption rating will be twice as high ( see economics thread for pirates section ). The only solution is to give the nation autonomy. The diplomatic pact ( UN ), may force a conqueror to grant that civ autonomy ( +100% unrest ).

    7.1.3 Split: Like annixing, only you can split the civ ( city by city ) between several nations. Good when several allies attacked the enemy toghther.

    7.1.4 Autonomy: Much like vassal, only the AI gives you no tribute. They remain loyal ( allied ) to you, but unlike vassal they don't have to. They posses no military, and requires your might to protect them. They will give a fixed taxs ( like they were your own cities ), but you may not ask any more by tribute. ( +10% unrest ).

    7.1.5 Confed:The city belongs to you, and share your color, but the city will always be controled by the AI goverenor. Any units it produce belongs to you, but you can't decide or direct the AI. The city pays taxs and give science output as normal ( +60% unrest ).

    7.1.6 Total freedom: The nations returns it complete freedom, and have no connections ( and no taxs ) to the conqueror. However, the citizens will be very fond of your empire, and will ally with you almost instantously.

    7.2. Unity: a special, new form of alliance. Unity is a "shared-victory-condition" status. United nations can win togther. They can build a spaceship togthter ( both win ), kill all other players, or try to make one world leader. The unity is however, NOT a union: other nations can't just join. It's not a pact. However, if a third party wants to sign a unity with one part, he must sign unity status will the second part ( also true when you have three, four and even five such players united togther ).
    7.2.1 In unity, the following treaties are allready signed: 2.1.1, 2.1.4, 2.2.1, 2.2.2, 2.2.6, 2.3.5. You may sign all the treaties, expect for monopoly ( 2.3.6 ).
    7.2.2 Should unity require both nations to have the same goverement type? What about religous and market selections?
    7.2.3 All sides in the unity must be atleast with peace with all the friends of the other side.
    7.2.4 it was suggested that united wonders treaty will be automaticly signed for every wonder ( see 2.3.2 ).
    7.2.5 Every side should contribute to the cause of the union of the two ( or more ) nations. While you are not forced to give the same thing ( for example, even if the union is in war, if you give your share by the value of food, money or technology, and not weapons, it's ok ). However, if a certain side seems to be negelecting it's duties ( not giving a major portion of a certain key reqruirment: food, money, tech, units ), then you may be charged with a fee.
    7.2.6 Should unity be limited to only democracies and republics? Personaly, I don't support this.
    7.2.7 The maximum number of unity members must be limited. It should not be more then 20% of civs in the game, rounded up. For example, if they are 12 players, not more then 3 may group toghter ( the rest can grouped toghther, but still no more then 3 ). This means that no specific group is bigger then 3, but you CAN have four groups of three, for example.
    7.2.8 It's was suggested that any union member can temper, and change, to a certain degree the economy of the rest of the members. Meaning, he can move people around the cities, direct the build quaue, upgrade units, disband old units, and so on. Meaning, help improve the status of his friend empire. Ofcourse, some players may use this power to the worse. I suggest giving the unity members only limited powers.

    7.3 Diplomatic levels: in civ II, we had four levels of diplomatic levels: war, truce, peace and alliance. This is clearly not enough, considering how many different levels were proposed over the forums. I try to summarize the similar ones, and show them all here, so, from total peace to total war, here we go:

    7.3.1 Unity: see 7.2 for further details.
    7.3.2 Alliance: Similar to brotherhood pact in SMAC. You may not attack the other side, and may sign all the treaties with your ally ( including militarial ones ). You automaticly share all map information with your ally, and you can co-ordinate strikes against your enemies. Alliance safe-step: you may not declare war on an ally. You may only "cancel alliance", which drops you to peace status. Only in the next turn can you declare war. Alliance should give you bonus to science and trade output.
    7.3.3 Peace: very similar to peace in civ II and SMAC. You may trade with your friend, and sign all the treaties except for militarial ones. Borders are fixed, and may not be moved even by close expansion. Declaring war on your peaceful friend cause great moral damage ( see 7.4 ).
    7.3.4 Cease-fire: you may not enter the enemy land, and you may trade with him via the diplomacy screen ( but not create trade treaties ). You can only sign agreement treaties ( see 2.4 ), and create ambassies. You may spy on your enemy, but not have any act of sabotage/terrorize. Should cease-fire cancel after some time? Should borders be fixed, or moving ( just without conquering enemy land? ).
    7.3.5 Neutrality/Hostility: A level of no-communcation with the other nations. Borders are not fixed, and may move. You can have low level of espionage, but not any direct assault ( like sabotage ). You can't trade with the other side, but you can sign agreement treaties ( see 2.4 ).
    7.3.6 Strike: a level of limited war. You may not take over cities, and none of the negative minus ( or bonuses ) of war applies to your economy. However, the senate and other players will constantly demand you stop the strike.
    7.3.7 War: a total war, just like in civ II. However, a prolonged war should effect your economy: gives a bonus to military producation, while hampering civilian infra-structure. The minus to the infrastructutre should effect you several turns even after the war ended. You may not commit any major atrocities however, like nuking. Needless to say, all trade and treaties are cancel when in war. it was suggested to limit the amount of cities you can take over in several turns, for example, up to 3 cities in 10 turns. Should democracies/republics be disallowed to attack other democracies? Or maybe there should be a huge diplomatic relations disadvantge. Maybe the other democracy must commit some atrocity?
    7.3.8 Total war/genocide: a much more powerful war. Your bonus to military, and morale, is huge. You can commit and atrocities, and nuke enemy cities. However, it can't be done in democracy/republic, and cause huge diplomatic damage. A diplomatic pact might declare war on you if you declare genocide.

    7.4 Public feeling and the senate: All players should have a diplomatic level scale, even the human players. That represent the feeling of the people. For example, if you just had a war with a human player, your level with him will be "hostile". If you will now go and sign an alliance with him, the people would be very angry, and it will cause unhappiness. The senate might even overule you ( "the senate refues to ally with our common enemy". You must sign peace, and wait for the level of connection to rise slowly.
    7.4.1 The level of connection also decided the bonus from trade. The closer you are to the other player, the more profit you get. Therefor, if a player becomes more hostile toward you ( lowering the relation scale ), you will get significly less money from trade. Therefor, when you commited atrocities, you can make a lot of player more hostile toward you, and get a lot less money from trade. Ofcourse this doesn't measure the feeling of the human player, but hostlity has effects.

    7.5 Improving repution: doing good things improves your repution ( your relation levels with all players, see 7.4 ). Building wonders ( not taking over them ), condemning/attacking villians ( players which commited a lot of atrocities ), acting honorebly ( helping your allies ), donating forces to a diplomatic pact ( see 1.1.1 ), or helping cities which were hit by random events ( see economics thread for special caravan abilities ). Calling for peace meetings also helps ( see 5.8.10 ).

    8. Atrocities and complaints

    8.1 Atrocities:

    I included a short explanations on your choise that are open to you when you capture an enemy town. It's required in order to understand some of the next atrocities in the list.

    * Guard: keep a garrison in the city, and she is considered lost for the other side, but remains the properity of the other side. Can be used in strike mode ( see 7.3.6 ).
    * Take over
    * Raid: still belongs to the other side, but you gain some money.
    * Pillage: taking over, also increase military unit morale ( raping the popultion ), increasing units health ( food ), more money out of the city. Destroys 50% of all buildings in the city.
    * Raise: like pillage, only 100% of all buildings are destroyed and sold for money.
    * Sack: destroys the entire city, all citizens of the city becomes slaves ( a 1/1/1 unit that moves to the nearest city where it becomes a normal, unhappy worker ).
    * Exterminate: only in genocide ( see 7.3.8 ). The entire city is destroyed with no profit. However, all combat units world-wide morale is increased for 3 turns. This is the only option in genocide ( you can't select anything else ).

    8.1.1 Events/minor atrocities: those include everything that can cause a small strain to nations. It can cause minor hostlity toward you. taking over a city ( if done without harming the people, then it's not a major atrocity ) Spy inside land Espionage ( low level ) Framing Breaking cease-fire Polluting ( pollution appears on map ) Blocking city exit points Destroying tile improvemnts Create a fortress or city near borders ( pushing them ) Use of military units against citizens ( to reduce unrest ) An opressive despotic rule ( too many taxs ) Steal: money, resource, units, or any other thing. Bribing city.

    8.1.2 Medium atrocity: those events may cause great hostility, sancations by pacts, and cancelation of treaties. Owning slaves Raiding a city Espionage ( high level, stealing tech ) Terroize ( destroying a building, financing terrorists, etc. ) Using forbidden weapons on military units Bombarding city Sieging city ( putting units inside city radii ) Destroying a civilian unit Raiding a trade route Breaking peace ( by declaring war ) Major pollution: oil leak, nuclear weapon test Brain wash: like SMAC. Occupying another nation city. Attacking a helpless enemy: if one side of a war clearly out-pass his enemy by numbers, size and technology, it's really is a masscare. He should be stopped.

    8.1.3 Major atrocity: those atrocities may have you expeled from concuils, make civs break contact and trade with you, and cause major sancations. Sacking a city Pillaging cities Raise city Poison city Using forbidden weapons on civilain units Attacking a diplomat Killing a leader Destroying a trade route

    8.1.4 Crimes against humanity: Most likely, most of the nations would declare war on you, unless you have a huge politcal power and support ( like the US bombing Hiroshima ). Nuking a city Exterminate a city Use forbidden weapons on city Declaring genocide Plant a virus

    8.2 The effects of commiting atrocities change along the game. In a general sense, in the modern world is much more harsh to atrocities. In old days, everyone saked cities: now it considered a major atrocity. The discovery of modern commucation, world-wide spread democracy and the establishment of the UN wonder, and Geneva convention should all increase the hostile attitude toward a atrocity-doer. It also needs to increase the level of some atrocities into a higher catagorey. Also, the state of the politcal world needs to be considered. If a civ kills an evil despot, which commited a lot of atrocities, it might not be considered a major atrocity ( see ), but might even gain the assinating civ popularty! Also, for example, until a global "no-nuke" charter passes, nuking might be considereds exceptable.

    8.3 A very unique and intriguing idea was suggested that the rules of diplomatic conduct should be an evolution in each game. Rules of conduct means defination of atrocities, there level, and other events. For example, if used for a great deal of time by many sides, blocking or sieging cities might be considered normal, while in other games sieging might be considered a major atrocities. Slavery might be accepted in a certain game ( for example, if no democracy existed for a very long time ), while in some other games it could turn the entire world against you. Those rules will be based on the process of each game, and the AI should act accordingly.

    8.4 Complaints: Complaints are a new option in the diplomacy screen. You can send a formal complaints upon any atrocity, even a minor one, to the maker. Every complaints reduce your diplomatic relations ( see 7.4 ), which will drasticly cut off his profit from trade. You can also ask a third side to complain also, reducing the level of relations with him too. You can even lobby for a diplomatic pact concuil for a formal compaints, which will make all the pact members more hostile to the evil doer.
    8.4.1 Explantion: when you complain, you get a pop-up screen which list all the atrocities the target did in the last ten turns. You can then choose one, or more, and complain. The more serious the atrocity, the more hostile you will become. Complaining on crimes againat humanity ( see 8.1.4 ) automaticly place you at war with that side.
    8.4.2 It would be more realistic if you won't be automaticly aware of all the crimes commited by the evil doer. You will need scouts and intelligence rating to know. For example, if side B saked side C city, only side C, and other civ that accidently had units there at the time, will know. However, side C may report this, by selectings "ask X to complain to side Y on..." ( see 5.8.8 ). Then, side X will know also about the crime.

    9. Long memory

    The AI should "rememebr" things, and treatments over the years. It thus responed in a much more realistic fashion.

    9.1 If you asks him to declare war on another player, he won't go and sign peace with him just a few turns after you talked. Same thing when he ask you to declare war on a certain other player. He should keep with what he suggest. If you or him sign peace with the other side, it applies to both of you. This is to prevents conditions like this:
    "Spain declares war on me, I get the Aztecs to help me.
    Spain sees the futility of opposing me, but now the Aztecs get annoyed with me when I call for peace and try to get them to do the same.
    The next turn, the Aztecs call me up and say "We are at war with the evil Spanish, you must honor our alliance and attack them!"

    9.2. If you refused to give him something he wants, he might mention it later, or let it change it attitude. For example, when you ask him for 1000 credit, he might say: "X turns ago we asked you for your X tech. If you want your credits, give us what we want".

    9.3 The citizens should remember wars for a very long time. For example, if a certain player attacked your land 100 turns ago, and since them you became best friends, when you choose to attack him once more ( or he attacks you ), even after 100 turns, the people becomes very happy. Something like: "the people are happy they can now revenage the old war of X".

    9.4 The AI should remember the praticipants of every war, and relates accordingly. Maybe even assign names to them: "The russian-aztec war", the "great british struggle", things like that. Therefor, he could relate to them all and won't be confused or sign peace/war with parts ( see 9.1 ).

    9.5 The AI should be adjusted to too many tributes, either asked by or from. An AI shouldn't be able to get pushed from tributes all the time from the bully ( that's you, pal ). He should after some time refuse, and lobby for the UN for protection ( see ). In another hand, the AI shouldn't ask you for tribute every 5 turns or so, even if he is far more powerful then you.

    10. Minor/Major AI

    For one thing, civ III requires more civ: it's more realistic, and show the balance of power more to the point then just 8 super powers. Therefor, it's suggested that beyond the normal amount of major empires, you will have a large amount of smaller empires, which will use a less developed form of AI. The minor AI will not expand beyond a few cities he will build, and only build those when he feel totaly safe. He won't raid or engage in wars, just build a few forces to defend he's own nation.

    10.1 Diplomatic relations: you won't be able to sign treaties with them beyond trade via the diplomacy screen ( only one-time trade, not even contracts ). The only levels of relations you can have with them are: war, neutral, peace, and alliance.

    10.2 You can't have unity with a minor AI: you can however suggest to him a membership proposel ( or he might ask you for one ). If accepted, the minor AI becomes a total part of your empire ( annix, see 7.1 ), but with no lose of happiness.

    10.3 If a major player ( only effects AI ) becomes too weak, then the biggest minor AI grows into power and assume the rule of a major player. Or maybe you should no limitation to the number of major empires: it can only grow, and not stay fixed.

    10.4 Minor empires should have connections with other minor empires. Even more, if they have good enough connections they can ally and form a bigger minor empire. if enough minor empires ally this way, they must "over-throw" a major empire and morph into a major empire ( when the former major empire revert to a minor one. See 10.3 ). Only apply to wars with more then three players.


    Akron, Al Gore, Anachron, Asmodean, Billybobjoe597, Bingmann, Black Dragon, Bubba, CarniveaN, Cartagia the Great, Chris J, CormacMacArt, CrayonX, CWM, CyberGnu, DarthVeda, Diodorus Sicilus, Diplomat, Doo1284, Dreadnought, Ecce Homo, Eggman, Emperor10, EnochF, FinnishGuy, Flavor Dave, Fugi the Great, Galen, Gallagher, Harel, HughTheHand, Ilprincipe, Imran Siddiqui, Stefu, Isle, Itokugawa, JamesJKirk, Jason Beaudoin, Jele2, Jimmy, Jof, JT, Korn469, Logo, LordZarm, Mo, Maniac, MBD, Meowser, Mindlace, Ming, Mo, Mr. Biggelswrth, NotLikeTea, Octopus, Qinglong, Redleg, Robert Miller, Shining1, Snipe, Stefu, SWPIGWANG, Tanis, Theben, Tfs99, Trachmyr, Transcend, Txurce, Viking, Willko, yin26, ZenOn, Zorloc
    <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited January 15, 2000).]</font>
    "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov

  • #2
    I think the civilization against who the atrocity was commited should be able to publish it which would let all other civs which aren't at war with it know about the attrocity.

    The civ who commited the attrocity can then deny it and say the other civ is making it up. A third party can then back one of the two sides if it witnessed it.


    • #3
      "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov


      • #4

        You have put in an immense amount of work on these summaries. I truly hope other people realize that Harel has taken a great deal of his time to put this summary (and others) together.

        Wonderful work, Harel.
        I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

        "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.


        • #5
          Nice summary, but how come I'm not listed in the credits?
          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


          • #6
            (nitpicking) Me neither !
            Great summary, as always.
            Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
            Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)


            • #7
              Sorry guys... the honor list was a copy from what jeje2 posted earlier: i assumed it was completly covered and didn't bother to check it... i will add your names.
              Sorry, and thanks for your apprecition of the summary! It took quite a while.
              "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov


              • #8
                Yes, great summary. And I sure hope as much as possible of it will be implemented into civ3. If just half of our ideas make it, civ3's diplomacy will be the best.

                No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
                'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
                G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"


                • #9
                  goes under '3. Special operations'

                  - Diplomat/spy should be able to steal enemy map
                  - You shouldn't be able to bride a city with 40 modern units without a MAJOR boost in the price (type 2x the shield cost of every unit). (sort of


                  • #10
                    1. It's mentioned that you would be able to declare war at the diplomacy screen. But in cases where the enemy refuses to negotiate, you should be able to declare war outside the diplomacy screen, though not by using a unit (as in Civ2 where you would start a war by attacking an enemy unit)

                    2. Once an alliance is formed, both sides should share maps automatically. Word spreads fast.

                    3. The Government Type should have more of an effect on diplomacy than the 'doves' in a Democracy or Republic. Democratic governments should not warm to despotisms and communes so easily.


                    • #11
                      In SMAC you already can declare war with out having to talk to them, just like they also can and do.


                      • #12
                        WoooooW!!! This is great! Thank you Harel, for this work, the word 'summary' hardly seems fitting!

                        This is the first time I looked up this thread, and I realise it's quite late for more suggestions, but since I just posted it in the thread "conquered regions" (in General/Suggestions), I decided to post the essence of it hereafter.

                        I believe it would belong to '7. Diplomatic relations', or more specifically to '7.1 surrender effect'.
                        I see you already covered the granting of independence to a conquered region of an enemy nation (7.1.1&4&6), but can this 'satellite state' make claims to being the 'real' government of a certain civ ? Or do you keep the possibility to influence the policies of this state directly (like SE decisions)?
                        This would give the diplomacy part a real feel of geopolitics, in that you can create situations like Cyprus/China/Korea/etc., where your adversary is weakened (and has to convince third parties (and maybe even their own people!)that they are still the true government of a certain civ), while you don't get directly involved.
                        It would also give you the possibility of eventually controlling (more or less) a sizable part of the map in this way (some 'satellite states'), that is more direct than alliances of previous games, yet less direct than actual conquest. The latter has the advantage that the others won't gang up on you ("civ x and y sign alliance to contain z's agression" or something like that in civ2).

                        Anyway, now I'm getting doubts as to whether this is the intention of this thread... But I'll post it anyway since I like this idea a lot (to stay politically correct : it was JamesJKirk's idea).


                        • #13
                          I'm not sure if this one has been mentioned already, but there should be option to demand fixed tribute. For instance, 10 golds per turn. This could be, for instance, part of peace treaty, ie the losing nation has to pay money to winning nation. Fir instance, Berber Nations lived, towards the end, almost entirely off huge tribute other nations paid to them to be spared from their piracy.

                          Downside, of course, is that this kind of pirate nation could yank science to be 100% and pay all building keepup costs from tributes, and this isn't correct. Maybe this would only work in Monarchy, Despotism and such primitive goverment types?
                          "Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
                          "Thatís the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world


                          • #14
                            How about percentage of the GNP rather then a fixed gold sum?


                            • #15
                              Summary 2.1.1 version is now posted. If something is still wrong, please tell me so!
                              "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov