MISCELLANEOUS (ver 2.1) Host: Ecce Homo

[Asmodean]

I have been toying around with this idea for quite some time now (actually since the time that Civ 2 came out) and I would like to see it in Civ 3.

In all the previous civ games, the objective has been to win the game in the modern age (or in the case of CtP in the "Diamond age"). I would like it if in Civ 3, you could define an age where all technological development stops, and then play the game to win in that age.

Think about it. In Civ 2 all units prior to the modern ones are just considered "stepping stones" to something better. Wouldn´t it be a challenge if the best you had were dragoons or cavalry units. The way I think most people are playing the game, they base a lot of their decisions on technology they know they will have, rather than working with what they have got. That is not very historically accurate. I can tell you know, that Eisenhower didn´t consider the possibillity of postponing the assault on Normandy, just because he might gain a technological edge by waiting 2 or 3 years.

It might even help us appreciate the earlier units more, if we had to stick with them, instead of just waiting for something better to come along.

Maybe you could incorporate different conditions for winning the game, based on what age you have defined as the final one. Say you wanted the game to end in the Roman era. That wouldn´t have to mean that you would be playing a short game. Only that after a certain level of technology was reached, no further developement would take place. The game could still go on for thousands of years. A win condition for such a game could be to build a certain wonder, or whatever...I don´t know.

Of course, what ever age you want to be the final one, conquering the world would always count as winning the game.

Anyway, it´s just an idea.

Asmodean

[Theben]

Technoguy,

Been away for a few days. Ok a week. As to your question, uhm, I don't know. It's really open to debate & I am struggling with my complete civ3 list as well as the COMBAT thread. While I agree with your conclusion, there's the game balance. Putting more people in a location that will have diminished returns & more disease won't be popular, I bet. I'll choose the safe road with C.
Also there's another problem I've found and that's that N shouldn't always rise to meet a1. I'm not sure what to do about that either. I'll get back to you.

[Jon Miller]

Hi all

this is where discussion of the stopping idea seems to be a good idea (especially for multiplayer)

maybe a starting time as well? (ready made random multiplayer scenarios!)

if you chose to end at the industrial age the game would end at 1900 ad (if it was not won prior to that) and all techs after industrial age tech would be future tech

future tech (by the way and I will add this to technology) should give you random bonuses in that area (for like 100 future techs) as in academic, military, money, ect that would not be new applications but would provide minor bonuses

using civs ages ancient would end at 1 ad (or 1000 ad?) and renaissance would end at 1650 ad (?)

Jon Miller

[ember]

I like this idea.
Divide the ages into roughly:
Bronze (starting level)
Iron/Roman
Medival
Rennasance
Industrial
Modern
Near future (space stations, fusion power, etc)
Far Future (wacked out stuff only the sci-fi authers can really dream up)

You can slect a starting and ending level as part of the ruels selection.
Standard is bronze / near furture.

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[Maniac]

Don't forget to include the Stone Age. According to the Jeff interview it's possible that Civ2 will start even earlier.

[FinnishGuy]

To reduce micromanagement, there should be an option to add new items into several city build queues with only few clicks from a special display.

"Add into" display options:

1. Select item to add
2. Select top/middle/bottom of queue
3. Select target city options:
- all queues
- queues of cities in top/bottom half/quarter in production/money/science/population
- queues of cities with a lot of unhappiness
- queues of cities with a lot of corruption

[Maniac]

I didn't found Game Atmosphere, so I'll post it here...

Be sure to include that Civ2 + CiC + FW music on the Civ3 CD. I really get a 'civ feeling' when I hear them.

[Radegast2]

I guess this is the place for this.

One of the few good things in the Dead Lemon game Braveheart was the 'triangular slider'. In this game you could elect to concentrate each town on one of three topics, which would roughly translate in civ terms to trade, production and growth(food). So within a triangular graphic you would move the dot towards one or other of the apexs depending on where you wanted your city to concentrate. As the dot moved, the colour inside the triangle would change, by assigning each primary colour to a corner and displaying the colour that matched the relative proportions.

So very easily, you could alter the direction of a town, and at a glance see what their current setting was, by both the position of the dot and the colour coding.

If this was allied with an ability to lock one or other of the three resources to a minimum value, i.e. grow at least enough food to feed the pop, produce enough minerals to make the current production in N turns, generate enough income to pay for buildings, the rest could be quickly and easily allocated. If coupled with either histogram or numeric output of actual values this provides a very efficient (in terms of real estate) 'city view'. Then, with spots for troops garrisoned, supported and in production we can perhaps get back closer to the single screen city view that I think is agreed by all to be an ideal.

This actually works better with a system of resources that are not tied to specific squares, but even with allocated squares I'm sure there are still benefits to be gained.

Just thinking that many games have nicked ideas from the Civ series, Civ should nick some back!

[mingko]

An idea on the placement of the initial civilization. Divided the map into nxn regions. Each of the civilization can choose their starting regions (or leave it as random). This will allow quick contact of civilzation and ample room for expansion in the games if the players desire. Actually I hoped that this could be in Civilization 2 but it could be too late to add this idea.

[Theben]

Hey, Ecce Homo, you still around?

[Vassago]

I don't think anyone talked about this, but when you cut jungles, you shouldn't get grassland, but plains or desert. The heavy rain in jungle area leech the minerals deep into the soil, and make them improper for agriculture. There should be a more realistic environment in Civ3

[Theben]

***SUMMARY OF MISCELLANEOUS/OTHER V. 2.1***

Well, here it is. Comments & criticisms welcome.

1. Random Natural Disasters

1.1) Specific disasters should target specific land types, i.e.: Tornadoes hit grasslands & plains, Tsunamis hit coastal squares, Landslides hit hills & Volcanoes hit mountains. Earthquakes would be either truly random or fall along predetermined fault lines.
1.2) Certain disasters attack specific city improvements, i.e.: Tsunamis take out ports & harbors, floods wreak havoc on aqueducts & sewer systems.
1.3) Two levels of disasters, Major & Minor, one of which is somehow preventable.
1.4) Present disasters as Wrath of the Gods?
1.5) Tech & improvements which would either prevent or lessen the effects of disasters, i.e.: Seismology tech could reveal the predetermined faultlines, if used, or allow a Seismology Center improvement to warn of coming Earthquakes.
1.6) Disasters could kill off a varying number of population points.
1.7) An evacuation order that allows a city to be spared loss of pop. points (but not city improvements) at the cost of stopping the city's production (trade, shields, everything) as long as the evacuation is in effect. This order would become available when and only when a disaster warning has become available.
1.8) Have it so that RND and some Random Events require player intervention: i.e. a flood requires the player to build improvements to end problem; a disease that needs to be tracked to it's source, have a research base set up, and devote a % of research to stop it?

2. Diseases & Plagues

2.1) Cities generate disease pts. based on heat & wetness as described in TILES & TILE IMPROVEMENTS. Hot & wet generates lots of disease while cold & dry generates low. It reduces growth, and at a certain level plague TI's start to appear (like pollution). The higher the total the greater chance and frequency plague TI's will develop.

2.2) The formula is B+(A-D)/2-N=T

• B= Base value of the land tiles
• A= Adds to disease
• D= Subtracted from disease
• N= Given # that represents your people's natural resistance & efforts to reduce disease.
• T= Total amount. This amount is added to A at the beginning of next turn.

2.3) Things that increase disease levels:
2.3.1) Working high disease value tiles
2.3.2) "Adjacent" cities & trade routes
2.3.3) Larger cities
2.3.4) Warfare, conquest, riots, rebellion
2.3.5) Germ warfare & spy missions
2.3.6) Destroying buildings that reduce disease
2.3.7) Pollution, constructing buildings that increase pollution
2.3.8) Contact with new civs, re-establishing contact w/ a civ
2.3.9) Plague TI's
2.3.10) Units wandering thru tiles that cause "damage" to them
2.3.11) A lack of food
2.3.12) Random events

2.3.1) Worked tiles add their total value to B. This includes tiles outside the city area but are having it's resources shipped to the city via "supply crawler". Unworked tiles only add 50% of their value.

2.3.2) Disease can "travel" outside of its origin, with a "movement" of about 2 per
turn; roads, RR's, etc., affect this. When a disease value encounters a city it compares it's B & A values to that of the city. If the city's combined values are higher then nothing happens, if the city's are lower then the difference is added it's A. Trade routes increase the "movement" speed of the disease along its route. Cities of nations that you haven't met aren't included in the 1st case but are included if there is a trade route going thru it. Eventually all cities that are connected in some manner will have approx. the same disease value. (should it have a decrease due to distance; is this programmable?)

2.3.3) Cities add a # to A per pop point. Obviously, larger cities add more.

2.3.4) Each turn a city is attacked & riots reduce the city's ability to prevent
disease, as seen by a loss of D. Conquest & rebellion completely prevent D from functioning for the turn the city is conquered or in rebellion. However, an enemy civ may spend money during warfare or conquest to reduce disease in the Target City (see below).

2.3.5) Germ warfare & spy missions simply add a given # to A. Techs can create even
higher sums for germ warfare, missions. Siege equipment (catapults, etc.) have an option to use germ warfare when attacking.

2.3.6) Self-explanatory

2.3.7) Polluted tiles add a set # of pts. to A per turn they are in existence. Also, 1
pollution pt. adds 1(?) pt. to A.

2.3.8) Contact new civs: Units have the disease total of their city if the SE choice is uncentralized, or of the nearest home/allied city in it's supply path if centralized. This amount would be listed in the City View & with the unit as well (not available to enemy view unless allied or modern medicine available). When a unit encounters a new civ, it adds it's city's combined B & A to the A of the city it encountered. This usually results in a outbreak of some kind. The unit will transmit it's new total back to it's home city or the nearest one, depending on the above, as long as it is in it's civ's supply grid. If not, it doesn't transmit until re-connected and the unit "holds onto" the B & A values of the new civ. If contact is lost and later re-established, the cities are only considered to be "adjacent".

2.3.9) See Effects (below)

2.3.10) I've suggested elsewhere that units take damage when moving thru certain terrain (chariots in mountains, swamp). This damage is different than the above but is partially due to disease so I mention it here.

2.3.11) A lack of food= 1(?) disease pt. per "bushel" shortfall. However, these disease pts. don't apply towards reduced growth, as this should be already accounted for in the growth rate.

2.3.12) Random plagues add to A. They can add a few to many pts., and can include instantly generated plague TI's.

2.4)Things that decrease disease levels:
Preventing the above
Working low disease tiles
Change tiles to less disease-bearing ones
2.4.1)Increasing N
2.4.2)Spend cash
2.4.3)Diplomatic missions
2.4.4)Constructing certain buildings-granary, aqueduct, sewers, city walls, water treatment plant?, mass transit, etc.
2.4.5)Wonders
2.4.6)Population reduction
2.4.7)Quarantine
2.4.8)Certain techs
2.4.9)Random events

2.4.1) N normally = the value of 1a. above. N also increases naturally: each turn that there's a positive amount in T, N increases by 1 point. In the event T is a negative number, N decreases by 1 point. The max number N can increase should have a cap; based on the city size?

2.4.2) Cash is paid to increase D. Some techs-medicine, sanitation, public health,
etc.-decrease the cost of buying off a disease point. You could set up a given amount to be paid each turn in high disease cities in the city screen. This should not be cheap.

2.4.3) This is done in the diplomacy screen. You send another civ aid, by 'buying' some pts. in their city's D (as in 2b.), or give/lend a disease-preventing tech. This can also be done in a city you're attacking or to any city under attack. You may also suggest to an ally how to set up it's city to lower disease (see DIPLOMACY).

2.4.4.) Buildings add to D, but only affect certain types of disease modifiers. Granaries reduce disease due to lack of food & famine random events; aqueducts greatly reduce disease in large cities; city walls allow the city to "refuse contact" (below) prior to Medicine (keeps out the diseased), mass transit by reducing pollution, etc. Again, techs may increase the reduction.

2.4.5) Cure for Cancer & Human Genome Project come to mind. They could affect D &/or act as tech (below).

2.4.6) See Effects

2.4.7) Cities under quarantine have all routes to or through them shut down. No units may enter or leave the city area. Units under quarantine outside their home city area are disbanded. This takes the city off the "adjacent city" lists & trade routes. Other cities can "refuse contact" with them; no units from that city or receiving support from that city may enter the city radius, trade to/through it is shut down. This has a % chance of avoiding contact with the diseased city. Quarantining isn't available until the discovery of Medicine.

2.4.8) Techs are subtracted directly from T, after the formula is calculated. This allows N to balance the formula to=0, and then tech can give a negative result. If a civ's technology or a declining N makes B+(A-D)/2-N= a negative number, then that number is added to the growth rate next turn.

2.4.9) Random events can add to D, cause plague TI's to vanish, etc.

2.5) Effects:

2.5.1) Cities: Each city has the same amount of "free" disease resistance (again, similar to the amount of pollution pts. cities can absorb). Once cities go beyond this point, each disease point lowers city growth, and creates a % chance of a plague TI appearing on the landscape. These cause unhappiness in the city, as well as reducing pop growth even more by adding additional pts. to A. Each disease point beyond the "free" level increases the chance of the TI appearing, up to 50%. Once disease pts. go beyond this stage, there is a 50% chance of a plague TI appearing and a smaller % chance of another plague TI appearing! There is no limit to the # of chances of a plague TI generating in the city radius in one turn. These can only be removed by settlers/engineers &/or public works, military units (depending on SE choices), or by a loss of a pop unit. Settlers/engineers must be funded and also cost extra food & support. The loss of a pop point causes one plague TI to disappear. Military units can remove a TI by killing a population point. The unit must be in the city or plague TI. This act is frowned upon by certain societies.

2.5.2) Units: Units have the same disease value as their supply point (as above). They make checks for outbreaks as cities; the difference being that a successful plague TI generation causes the unit to take 1 point of damage*it's "reactor level" (i.e., the 1,2,3, or 4 hp's of units found in civ2 and SMAC) instead. In the event that a unit encounters another civ (1h. above), unit, or populated TI- anything that increases its disease value above its supply point, it will transfer the value to the supplying city, based on distance. If unsupplied, it will "hold" onto the new disease level until reconnecting to its supply route (as above). Any unit in a plagued tile automatically takes 1* reactor damage, except for settlers/engineers that are receiving the extra support to cleanse the tile (they are still subject to normal disease damage). Units that receive support from a city that has plague TI's cannot switch support to other cities. Units receiving support from a plagued city also have their morale reduced.

2.5.3) Populated TI's: Military bases, naval bases, supply depots, farms, garrisoned forts, etc. have a disease pt. level = to the nearest city or the city they receive support from. For game purposes they are immune to disease and all it's effects, with the exception of village TI's. Villages are the only squares that can get a 'disease' icon. Villages with disease icons on them have reduced production and % chance of being destroyed per turn.

2.6) 4 options (for Firaxis, not players) for multiple workers on same tile:

A given tile ,FE, creates 10 disease pts. for the city each turn one worker is on it. If two workers are on it, the city will receive:[list=a][*]10 disease points (as if only one person was on the tile)[*]15 disease points (150% of the norm, which would be diminishing returns on the disease points given to the city)[*]20 disease points (additive, each worker contributes his 10 disease points)[*]25 disease points (the villagers are packed together tighter, and as a result they're going to get sicker)[/list=a]

2.7) There are 2 examples of how this works in the regular MISCELLANEOUS thread. Several players liked this disease model, while another group thought it was too much work for a minor effect.

3. Era-Based Games

3.1) In Civ 3, you should be able to define an age where all technological development stops, and then play the game to win in that age. Reasoning:[list=a][*]Players base decisions on technology they know that they will have, rather than working with what they currently have. That is not historically accurate. [*]Players would appreciate the earlier units more if they actually had to use them, instead of just waiting for something better to come along.[/list=a]
3.2) Incorporate different conditions for winning the game? Based on what age you have defined as the final one; FE, you want the game to end in the Roman era. That wouldn't necessarily mean that you would play a short game, only that after a certain level of technology was reached, no further development would occur. The game could still go on for many turns. A win condition for such a game could be to build a certain wonder, etc. Of course, conquering the world would always count as winning the game.

3.3) For players who love researching our opponents to death:

• Future techs. As civ2, the player only gets points. This one is a requirement at minimum. Or,
• Further advancement in a current tech. See TECHNOLOGY.

3.3.1) This idea allows for compromise between the futurists, who can have their future techs, and the traditionalists who can have their strictly modern techs.

3.4) Have new starting/stopping points for civ3. Play can be designated to stop at the end of a given era, or start at the beginning of that era. Technology would not progress past the last era (as above); all new techs would be considered "future tech". Especially useful for multiplayer.

3.5) Divide the ages into roughly:[list=a][*]Stone/Neolithic Age [*]Bronze [*]Iron/Roman[*]Medieval[*]Renaissance[*]Industrial[*]Modern[*]Near future (space stations, fusion power, etc.)[*]Far Future[/list=a]

4. Miscellaneous Miscellaneous

4.1) Have a menu option that allows player to add into queues from outside the city screen:

• Select item to add
• Select location in queue

4.1.1)Other target city options would allow for entering the same item into multiple queues at once, with a single click of the mouse button. This would greatly reduce micromanagement. Some options:

• Select all city queues
• Target queues of cities in top or bottom of production/money/science/population
• Target queues of cities with a lot of unhappiness
• Target queues of cities with a lot of corruption

4.2) Have a "triangular slider" in city view. Within a triangular graphic you would move the dot towards one of the corners of the triangle, depending on what you want your city to concentrate on: food, shields, or trade. As the dot moves, the color inside the triangle would change in respect to which product =which color. Allow player to lock in minimum outputs for resources, along with numeric representation of the 3 production values. Then, with spots for troops garrisoned, supported and in production we can get back to the single-screen city view (as opposed to SMAC with its multiple screens).

4.3) More realistic environment. Jungles that are cut down will reveal at best plains/at worst desert.

4.4) More cultural options for Throne Room, or a return to the Palace-building options of civ1; perhaps have civ-specific city-improvements? Same abilities, just different pictures/icons.

4.5) Have the game require an advanced machine to run (800 MHz, 100 RAM, ½ gig memory to play, etc.); does not want to buy a game that is already obsolete. No comments from other players.

4.6) No drums in opening music for civ3.
4.6.1)Wants older civ2 music available in civ3. (can't satisfy everyone)

4.7) Likes SMAC city prod under city name. Would also like to see food, shields, & trade produced in city from main map.

4.8) Keep interface similar to civ2: all buttons that lead to more info are tucked away. Makes screen less cluttered.

4.9) Have regular civ colors when city is normal, but change when something will happen next turn. This includes a city growing and the result will be disorder. City name turns much lighter shade of civ's color when something good will happen, red when something bad will happen. Only the city name changes color; all other info stays normal. Have a symbol next to the city name telling you at a glance what the event will be. Allows for player to have info about city w/o always having to enter city screen.

4.10) Have interface change as civ modernizes. Have interesting graphics when accessing the map of the world that also change with your modernizing civ.

4.11) Territory explored "returns to dark" until your civ discovers Mapmaking. Also include "Fog-of-war" from SMAC (already suggested elsewhere I'm sure).

4.12) Have realistic portrayal of units and terrain, and/or units/terrain that are easy to identify.

4.13) How about a cool little ICQ flower being embedded to the bar within the game, this way I can stay in contact with people while playing the game. Another suggestion was to allow access to the Windows Start bar during the game, which would solve this problem.

4.14) For the demographics screen, have all (known?) civs' demographics displayed, not just the player's and the one other civ that is being compared.

Special thanks to:
Icedan, Jon Miller, Theben, Ember, Vassago, Mingko, Maniac, Radegast2, FinnishGuy, Technophile, bcr3, Asmodean, markusf, VaderTwo, geofelt, Ecce Homo for TMing, and all others from List 1 that I haven't mentioned here.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited October 28, 1999).]</font>

[FinnishGuy]

Theben, about Miscellaneous Miscellaneous 1.) and 1a.)... Your summary of my proposal is confusing. I suggested an option to add items into several or all city build queues simultaneously from a dedicated display. The idea is to reduce clickfest especially when you want a newly discovered improvement built in every city. So you obviously DON'T select city first. You open the special "Add into queues" display, select the item and then location (options: current/top/middle/bottom of queue) where you want it placed. Player can also select some filters (described in 1a.) to add into queues of a desired subset of all cities.

[Theben]

Well, it's difficult to keep the original intent when I'm trying to cut down on the total post. I'll see what I can do.

[markusf]

What do you think of these ideas?

-The closing screen for civ 1 where it showed the map and how you slowly conquered territory over the centuries.

- Extreme unhappyness and corruption as a result of mass city building. Or Maybe only allow cities of size 3+ to product science.

- Access to the power Graph and charts. For demographics if i am in first i would also like to see who is the closest to me. sencond in pop for instance.

- I want a minister who can control my cities for me. For instance if i select a minister to control my building for that city i would like a menu to pop up that would allow me to create a build cue, this would then apply to all cities controled by the minister.

- The AI should take advantage of spies and Co-orinate attacks with several units on one city not one unit at a time. It is basically imposible to die if you make it past 1000 AD.

- I would like to see some elements of Imperialism incorperated into CIV 2. Like colonies, and trading partners and a comodities exchange. For instance i have coal and silk mines, but i don't have any iron to make steel so i have to buy from another country.