MISCELLANEOUS (ver 2.1) Host: Ecce Homo

[Ecce Homo]

Place for the new summary...

[Ecce Homo]

...continues here...

[mzilikazi]

I am afraid I can't find an appropriate trhead for this, so it'll have to be the miscellaneous one. This is transferred from the General Civ3 forum, in response to calls for civ-specific units, which I feel would be a mistake. Someone suggested different icons (dondon, chuckles and mrtemba sparked the idea I believe, and I continue as below):

"There's definitely some mileage in the different icons idea - I like that. It could work along the lines of the city style difference (i.e. Classical, Stone Age, Medieval and Oriental). For the Legion type unit (which would be the icon used for a Classical-style Civ), there would be a unit with identical stats but different icons, for each of the other styles: Oriental would obviously have a Samurai, Medieval could have a Swordsman, and Stone Age could have a Brave or an Impi. Similar differences could exist for other early units - the Knight (Medieval) would equate to the Mounted Samurai (Oriental), Elephant (Stone Age - I was always a little unhappy at having armies of Viking elephants in Northern Europe) and Heavy Horse (Classical). Some units (like Diplomats, settlers, perhaps chariots, and naval units) would not need to differ between Civ styles. Of course, like the city styles themselves, the different unit styles would not last until the modern era. A modern Japanese infantryman, tank or fighter plane looks much like a modern French, Egyptian or Indian one: after industrialization, styles of new units would converge.
Same abilities, different style - i.e. cosmetic difference only, but essential for game atmosphere and realism."

Some comments and concerns emerged about the work this could create for game designers and scenario writers (as well as calls for an overhaul of the Industrial building architecture). Further posts as follows:

"The more I think about this system, the more I like it. It would avoid the restrictiveness of any Civ-specific units, but would maintain atmosphere. Furthermore, there is nothing to stop a player selecting a different style in the opening menu. If I want to play the Germans as Stone Age, or the Zulus as Classical, I could do so - the option already exists in Civ2. I think it is absoutely vital that choice of Civ should be immaterial in determining the chance of victory, ruling out Civ specific-units with different advances (a la Age of Empires). This would get around the problem, and give a significant boost to the atmosphere of the game.

Any takers for making City Style choice even more influential? Not just cities and unit appearances,; what about four different potential throne-rooms (or whatever), and different appearances of buildings and improvements in the city view screen? I am no techie, so I don't know if the graphics would blow memory requirements - but these would be still pictures, so I guess not. If the game can include twenty-odd different animated heralds, surely it's not too difficult to include 4 variations on the theme of the throne room... (Theben informs me that this was the case in Civ1).

Perhaps this is going too far, but what about different styles/names for improvements (again, pre-industrial) for different City Styles? Again, effects and prerequisites would remain the same, but the icon and name could differ... A Civ in Medieaval Style builds a Church, Oriental and Classical build a Temple and Stone Age builds a Shaman. Does the same for each, but looks different and builds atmosphere. Similar style/cultural differences could be found for Cathedral, Colosseum (Theatre/Stadium) and possibly Barracks (Academy/Training Field). Help me here - is this worth exploring? probably not, but it just occurred to me, so maybe someone else can expand on it...

[Icedan]

I couldnt find anywhere to post this, so i'll post it here.

I just think that the government (you) should face up to problems we see today.

For example. If a disease breaks out somewhere (like in Africa, or in a random map the computer picks a certain area (Jungle perhaps) as a birthplace for all natural diseases). You have to try and find a way to stop the disease from breaking out, set up a base to cure it, etc. little options like this. And maybe if you, or no one does try to isolate the disease, then the disease breaks out and kills off civilizations. And if the disease has killed off everyone but yours, then you win, or you could risk losing your civilization. Little gamble desicions like that would make the game sooo much more fun!

We need more problems that governments have to face up to and solve. Like we have today.
And more importantly, the problem isnt solved instantly, it has to be something long term and unpredictable.

[Jon Miller]

Hi all

here is an idea

make civ3 for the computers of its time (2 years from now) not for the computers of now

I expect 256 ram and nearing 1 gig hz processors will be the good systems

therefore 128 mb ram and 500 to 600 mhz processors should be the minium

already computers are so cheap it is easy to buy low end systems

I don't want to play a game that is already 2 years outdated

also make it so that it can use multiple processors and other stuff like that

also do not limit size of world and number of civs

if I have a good enough computer I want to be able to run a 1000X1000 world (using old maps) or something better with 100 civs

Jon Miller

[Theben]

DISEASE & PLAGUES

Cities generate disease pts.= a # based on the tiles around the city. Swamps, jungle, are highest while tundra, desert are lower. Or it could be based on heat & wetness as described in TILES & TILE IMPROVEMENTS. Hot & wet generates lots of disease while cold & dry generates low (I like this better). Other factors are included (below). It reduces growth, and at a certain level plague TI's start to appear (kind o' like pollution). The higher the total the greater chance and frequency plague TI's will develop.

The formula is B+(A-D)/2-N=T

B=Base value of the land tiles
A=Sum of all things that add to disease
D=Sum of all things that are subtracted from disease
N=Given # that represents your people's natural resistance to disease, & efforts to reduce disease (and reduce micromanagement )
T=Total amount. This amount is added to A at the beginning of next turn.

1)Things that increase disease levels:
1a)Working high disease value tiles
1b)"Adjacent" cities & trade routes
1c)Larger cities
1d)Warfare, conquest, riots, rebellion
1e)Germ warfare & spy missions
1f)Destroying buildings that reduce disease
1g)Pollution, constructing buildings that increase pollution
1h)Contact with new civs, re-establishing contact w/ a civ
1i)Plague TI's
1j)Units wandering thru tiles that cause "damage" to them
1k)A lack of food
1l)Random events

1a) Worked tiles add their total value to B. This includes tiles outside the city area but are having it's resources shipped to the city via "supply crawler". Unworked tiles only add 50% of their value.

1b) Disease can "travel" outside of it's origin, and has a "movement" of about 2 per turn, factoring in such things as roads, rr's, etc. When a disease value encounters a city it compares it's B & A values to that of the city. If the city's combined values are higher then nothing happens, if the city's are lower then the difference is added it's A. Trade routes increase the "movement" speed of the disease along it's route. Cities of nations that you haven't met aren't included in the 1st case but are included if there is a trade route going thru it. Eventually all cities that are connected in some manner will have approx. the same disease value.

1c) Cities add a # to A per pop point. Obviously, larger cities add more.

1d) Warfare (each turn a city is attacked) & riots reduce the city's ability to prevent disease, as seen by a loss of D. Conquest & rebellion completely prevent D from functioning for the turn the city is conquered or in rebellion. However, an enemy civ may spend money during warfare or conquest to reduce disease in the target city (see below).

1e) Germ warfare & spy missions simply add a given # to A. Techs can create even higher sums for germ warfare, missions. Seige equipment (catapults, etc.) have an option to use germ warfare when attacking.

1f) Self-explanatory

1g) Polluted tiles add a set # of pts. to A per turn they are in existence. Also, 1 pollution pt. adds 1 pt. to A.

1h) Contact new civs: Units have the disease total of their city if the SE choice is uncentralized, or of the nearest home/allied city in it's supply path if centralized. This amount would be listed in the City View & with the unit as well (not available to enemy view unless allied or modern medicine available). When a unit encounters a new civ, it adds it's city's combined B & A to the A of the city it encountered. This usually results in a outbreak of some kind. The unit will transmit it's new total back to it's home city or the nearest one, depending on the above, as long as it is in it's civ's supply grid and by using the unit's movement in place of the disease's "movement". If not it doesn't transmit until re-connected; the unit "holds onto" the B & A values of the new civ. If contact is lost and later re-established, the cities are only considered to be "adjacent".

1i) See Effects (below)

1j) I've suggested elsewhere that units take damage when moving thru certain terrain (chariots in mountains, swamp). This damage is different than the above but is partially due to disease so I thought it worth mentioning here.

1k) A lack of food= 1 disease pt. per "bushel" shortfall. However, these disease pts. don't apply towards reduced growth, as this is already accounted for in the growth rate.

1l) Random plagues add to A, and may add only a small amount or may add a very large number. In addition, severe plagues may also be accompanied by instant plague TI's generated in the city radius.

2)Things that decrease disease levels:
Preventing the above
Working low disease tiles
Change tiles to less disease-bearing ones
2a)Increasing N
2b)Spend cash
2c)Diplomatic missions
2d)Constructing certain buildings-granary, aqueduct, sewers, city walls, water treatment plant?, mass transit, etc.
2e)Wonders
2f)Population reduction
2g)Quarantine
2h)Certain techs
2i)Random events

2a) N normally=the value of 1a. above. N also increases naturally: each turn that there's a positive amount in T, N increases by 1 point. In the event T is a negative number, N decreases by 1 point.

2b) Cash is paid to increase D. Some techs-medicine, sanitation, public health, etc.-decrease the cost of buying off a disease point. You could set up a given amount to be paid each turn in high disease cities in the city screen. Buying off disease ain't cheap.

2c) This is done in the diplomacy screen. You send another civ aid, by 'buying' some pts. in their city's D (as in 2b.), or give/lend a disease-preventing tech. This can also be done in a city you're attacking or to any city under attack. You may also suggest to an ally how to set up it's city to lower disease (explained in the DIPLOMACY thread).

2d) Buildings add to D, but only affect certain types of disease modifiers. Granaries reduce disease due to lack of food & famine random events; aqueducts greatly reduce disease in large cities; city walls allow the city to "refuse contact" (below) prior to medicine (keeps out the diseased), mass transit by reducing pollution, etc. Again, techs may increase the reduction.

2e) Cure for Cancer & Human Genome Project come to mind. They could affect D &/or act as tech (below).

2f) See Effects

2g) Cities under quarantine have all routes to or through them shut down. No units may enter or leave the city area. Units under quarantine outside their home city area are disbanded. This takes the city off the "adjacent city" lists & trade routes. Other cities can "refuse contact" with them; no units from that city or receiving support from that city may enter the city radius, trade to/through it is shut down. Quarantining isn't available until the discovery of Medicine.

2h) Techs are subtracted directly from T, after the formula is calculated. This allows N to balance the formula to=0, and then tech can give a negative result. If a civ's technology or a declining N makes B+(A-D)/2-N= a negative number, then that number is added to the growth rate next turn.

2i) Random events can add to D, or cause plague TI's to vanish, etc.

3) Effects:

3a) Cities: Each city has the same amount of "free" disease resistance (again, similar to the amount of pollution pts. cities can absorb). Once cities go beyond this point, each disease point lowers city growth, and creates a % chance of a plague TI appearing on the landscape. These cause unhappiness in the city, as well as reducing pop growth even more by adding additional pts. to A, causing plagues to grow quickly if ignored. Each disease point beyond the "free" level increases the chance of the TI appearing, up to a 50% chance. Once disease pts. go beyond this stage, there is a 50% chance of a plague TI appearing and a smaller % chance of another plague TI appearing! There is no limit to the # of chances of a plague TI generating in the city radius (well, 20) in one turn. Once present the player/AI must take action to remove them. These can be removed by settlers/engineers &/or public works, military units (depending on SE choices), or by a loss of a pop unit. Settlers/engineers must be funded and also cost extra food & support. The loss of a pop point causes one plague TI to disappear. Military units can remove a TI by killing a population point. The unit must be in the city or plague TI. This act is frowned upon by certain societies.

3c) Units: Units have the same disease value as either their city of support or the closest home/allied city in their supply route, as figured above. They make checks for outbreaks as cities; the difference being that a successful plague TI generation causes the unit to take 1 point of damage*it's "reactor level" (i.e., the 1,2,3, or 4 hp's of units found in civ2 and SMAC) instead. In the event that a unit encounters another civ (1h. above), unit, or populated TI-or is struck with a plague random event-the increase to it's disease level only lasts the one turn, although it may "hold" onto the disease until reconnecting to it's supply route (as above). Any unit in a plagued tile automatically takes damage, except for settlers/engineeers that are receiving the extra support to cleanse the tile (they are still subject to damage, but it is not automatic).
Units that receive support from a city that has plague TI's cannot switch support to other cities in an attempt to reduce their disease value. Units receiving support from a plagued city also have their morale reduced by 1.

3d) Populated TIs: Military bases, naval bases, supply depots, farms, garrisoned forts, etc. have a disease pt. level=to the nearest city or the city they receive support from. For game purposes they are immune to disease and all it's effects, with the possible exception of village TI's, but how they are affected I'll leave to someone else (ember?).

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited August 12, 1999).]</font>

[Theben]

An example:
A city has 20 points of disease from tiles around it & worked tiles. It is size 4, for 4 more pts. There is a larger city nearby adding +2 pts. overall. The city/civ currently has no techs/buildings/wonders that would add to D. It's N is 20 (equal to 1a.).

The formula is B+(A-D)/2-N=T

With numbers: 20+(6-0)/2-20=3.
We'll say that 5 is the maximum number to get w/o worrying about lowered growth & plague TI's.
T=3, and this number is added to A the following turn. N increases by 1. There are no outside changes to A or D.

turn 2: 20+(9[6+3]-0)/2-21=3 1/2, round up to 4. N again increases by 1. Note that the 3 extra points from the turn before are included in the 4 points added this turn, they don't continue to add up.
turn 3: 20+(10[6+4]-0/2-22=3.
turn 4: 20+(9-0)/2-23=1 1/2 or 2.
turn 5: 20+8/2-24=0.
turn 6: 20+6/2-24=-1. The cit will get a one turn boost to it's growth (a very minor boost).
turn 7: 20+5/2-23=0.
turn 8: 20+6/2-23=0. The numbers have stabilized, and won't change, w/o additional interference.

Now lets say another civ you've never met comes along. The city supporting it has a B of 16 and an A of 4, =20.

20+(6+another 20, for 26-0)/2-23=23. Let us also say that each +1 above 5=a +10% chance of a plague TI generating, so there are 23-5 18 points, for 3-50% chances of a TI appearing, and 1-30% chance. Let's say that 2 TI's generate, and that each one adds +3 disease points.

Next turn: 20+(6+23+6-0)/2-24=13.5 or 14. Now there's 1-50% chance and 1-40% chance. You're unlucky and 2 more TI's appear, bringing the total to 4. Your populace is dimishing quickly. You decide to shell out cash to buy some defense, 4 points worth.

Turn 3: 20+(6+14+12-4)/2-25=9. No new TI's appear. In fact one of your people die and thus a TI disappears. Your base A value and TI value have both decreased. You also discover medicine, which subtracts a point from T, before T is calculated to inhibit growth & generate plague but after N's change is figured. You pay for 4 more points of D.

Turn 4: 20+(5+8+9-4)/2-26=3. The crisis is over, and eventually will stabilize. You may lose one more pop point before it's over. Note that if you didn't immediately quarantine the city (and because you didn't have medicine, you couldn't; but other cities might have walls), the new disease will "move" to nearby cities causing the same problems.

What do you think?
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited August 12, 1999).]</font>

[mzilikazi]

It looks as if a lot of work and thought has gone into that - congratulations, I think you have found your working disease model. I especially like the time lag - that your citizens are still sick and could die even after the crisis is abating... evil stuff! I would be extremely happy to see a system on these lines in Civ3.

[Theben]

Thanks! I was really wracking my brain on that formula for awhile. It did take up a good deal of my time, but once I get started thinking about civ3 ideas I can't do anything else! I'll also send many thanks to EnochF & mrtemba for getting me on the right direction!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited August 12, 1999).]</font>

[Theben]

Something else that just occurred to me is that this will be prevalent early thru midgame, when your empire is smaller and you don't have as much to do, but as tech & city structures are built the player's concern for it is diminished. By modern times only violence & random events should cause disease-related problems. Built-in micromanagement!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited August 12, 1999).]</font>

[ember]

Ok. Disease in villages. Villages are the only squares that can bet a 'disease' icon. Having an outbreak of ebola in the middle of uninhabited plains is just silly. Villages with disease icons on them have reduced production and % chance of being destroyed per turn, small, but don't clean it up and it will happen...

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[VaderTwo]

Having suffered through nearly five minutes of the Civ II Multiplayer opening music waiting for a person to reboot their system I have one urgent request:

NO DRUMS IN THE OPENING MUSIC IN CIV III !!!

[loinburger]

Theben:

Regarding the Disease model: I like it a lot, and have only one question for you--

Many who have posted on the forums (myself included) are in favor of multiple workers being able to work one piece of terrain for diminishing returns. Fine and dandy, but how will this add to the city's disease points?

I see three options for how this will add up--as always, my numbers are pulled out of a hat. The example will be a Jungle tile square, which, let's say, gives a city 10 disease points each turn if one worker is on it. If two workers are on it, however, should the city receive:
a. 10 disease points (as if only one person was on the tile),
b. 15 disease points (150% of the norm, which would be diminishing returns on the disease points given to the city),
c. 20 disease points (additive, each worker contributes his 10 disease points),
d. 25 disease points (the villagers are packed together tighter, and as a result they're going to get sicker).

I am in favor of option "d" myself, as it seems to make sense that higher density will result in more disease. This being a purely hypothetical question, it is obviously open to debate. What do you folks have to say?

[bcr3]

OK, I wanted to cut & paste this here, but someone locked me out of editing my own message before I got a chance. This message is a condensed form of all the ideas presented on the CivIII General Forum "Nature's Wrath" thread. The basic idea is to add random natural disasters in CivIII. They were present in Civ but didn't make the cut for Civ2. Here's what we have so far:

- Specific disasters should target specific land types, i.e.: Tornadoes hit grasslands & plains, Tsunamis hit coastal squares, Landslides hit hills & Volcanoes hit mountains. Earthquakes would be either truly random or fall along predetermined fault lines.
- Certain disasters destroy specific city improvements, i.e.: Tsunamis take out ports & harbors, floods wreak havoc on aqueducts & sewer systems.
- Two levels of disasters, Major & Minor, one of which is somehow preventable.
- Present disasters as Wrath of the Gods, i.e.: Fundamentalist gov'ts get hit less often (though it seems to me they get it pretty good already...)
- New technologies & improvements which would either prevent or lessen the effects of disasters, i.e.: Seismology tech could reveal the predetermined faultlines, if used, or allow a Seismology Center improvement to warn of coming Earthquakes.
- Disasters could kill off a certain number of population points which varies depending on Major or Minor status of the disaster.
- An evacuation order which allows a city to be spared loss of pop. points (but not city improvements) at the cost of stopping the city's production (trade, shields, everything) as long as the evacuation is in effect. This order should probably become available when and only when a disaster warning has become available, thus preventing any possible abuse, i.e.: evacuating cities with 150 shields in their production boxes until Manhattan Project is finished... just a little unfair.

My thanks to Icedan, who directed my attention to this forum as the "serious" one, and to Theben for helping me figure out the Rules to posting here.

[loinburger]

Asmodean:

I like that idea. However, for those of us who love researching our opponents to death, your idea should incorporate:
a. Future techs. Just like in every other Civ game, these won't give any bonus (FE, if your game ends in the Roman era, getting 100 Future Techs won't suddenly give you Railroad, it will only give you a points bonus).
b. Further advancement in a current tech. The former I practically insist upon, but this one I only suggest (I won't go home crying if everyone tells me it's a terrible idea). This idea of further advancement is already delved into in the Technology thread.

One of the biggest reasons I like your idea is because I want Civ III to incorporate futuristic tech advances ala SMAC, but others would prefer the game to stop around the year 2100 (which would not allow much time for futuristic techs to take hold). Your idea provides another (shudder) compromise in that the futuristists can have their future techs while the conservatives can have their strictly modern techs.

I suggest you post your idea in the Technology thread as well.