RELIGION 2.1 (Hosted by Stefu)

[Maniac]

Raingoon :

That diplomatic option sounds ok to me.
To make the option more useful if you have a state religion, I digged up some old ideas and tweaked them a little to the present ideas.

1)If another civ attacks you, the citizens in his empire that have your state religion become unhappier. Suggestion : 1 on 4 a lower happiness level or ALL a lower unhappiness level just as if they were persecuted?

This effect is canceled if the other empire has the same state religion UNLESS...

New diplomatic option if the state religion's holy city is in your territory :
Ask for excommunication of the other civ's leader. Same effect : all state religion believers get a lower happiness level.


2) If an enemy's city is conquered and your state religion has a majority in that city, the city is already considered assimilated.
To fresh up your memory, the assimilation process involves normally 50 turns of increased unhappiness in the conquered city.
After that 50 turns the city population is considered assimilated to your culture.

"So... Beginning to come together here?"

About the religion effects, I proposed a consensus that involves both some of our ideas, but Will didn't answer at all.

New State Religion

->One on 4 believers made happy (you know why)
->+20% Evangelism in your own empire.
->-2 Tax
->You can only build a Cathedral if you have a state religion. Under Religious Freedom or if you haven’t got a state religion they don’t need upkeep. Instead, they generate the an amount of gold equal to their normal upkeep cost (as in Civ2 Fundamentalism) to simulate tourism.

New Religious Freedom

->+ 1 or 2 SE Happiness
->+1 Res
->-20% Conviction
->Per religion existing in your city, one citizen is made content with a maximum of ¼ of the city population.

If you think that the Happiness factor didn't exist in some way in Civ2 or SMAC, I can quote some formulae.

I think what I quoted above is pretty much Civ2 terms understandable.

Oh, a final note about Cleric assassination.
Just as in Civ2 there should be an option between expulsion and killing.
Expulsion sends the Cleric back to his origin city and as you said killing could cause a holy war/crusade.

[raingoon]

M@ni@c

I like your new religious freedom and state religion modifiers. Hopefully Will will pick up and chime in. They should go in section III, if nobody has any complaints.

Actually, I like all these suggestions. One point --

->One on 4 believers made happy

Sorry, can you clarify what "one on 4" means?

[Maniac]

For every 4 followers of the state religion in a city, one of them becomes a happy citizen.

So 1/2/3 Turywenzists means nothing.
4/5/6 or 7 Turywenzists makes one Turywenzist happy.
8/9/10/11 makes 2 happy.
12... 3 happy

[MBrazier]

Raingoon: I'd go with M@ni@c's idea; if a military unit catches a cleric in transit, the civ has the option of expelling the cleric, killing him, or letting him go on to his original destination. Expulsion only bounces the cleric out to the civ border. Killing a cleric gives you a minor black mark from his sponsoring civ (if any) and a major black mark from his religion; it qualifies as a diplomatic incident, and the other civs and religions adjust their diplomacy accordingly.

[will I]

Sorry for my silence on Friday, but I was away for the afternoon, and like any good follower of the religion thread, I took my holy days off.

I didn't respond to M@ni@c's proposal because I agreed with it completely. However, I disagree with his clarification of the happiness effects. I would say that we should round up the number of happy people, that is, that
1,2,3,4 Turywenzists = 1 Turywenzists gets a happiness boost
5,6,7,8 Turywenzists = 2 T'ists get a happiness boost, etc.
I think that M@ni@c's more restrictive approach doesn't make the state religion a sufficiently attractive alternative to religious freedom.

On tithing, I agree that under religious freedom, my proposal is somewhat more costly than the Civ2 system of paying upkeep on religious improvements. However, I believe the effects of religion are in general more favorable than the religious improvements were by themselves, so that a higher cost is justified.

I'll defer to Will, on this. I was going off his previous post. Not to cop out, but in general, I've stayed out of the Effects specifics when doing Section II. Will?

I think M@ni@c's most recent proposal, and the allowance of missions to one's own cities eliminates the problem.

I agree with MBrazier that a civ should be allowed to kill computer-controlled clerics en route, just like it can kill computer civ diplomats in Civ2.

I'm really busy today, but I'll try to rewrite Effects in line with the consensus model sometime today or tomorrow.

[Maniac]

Well Will, about that rounding up or down, to me it isn't that important. I just used rounded down cause that was the way the Peacekeepers in SMAC got the bonus.
But doesn't rounding up make We Love The Days too frequent? I remember you yourself were worried about that when I first proposed one on four happy. But on the contrary the difficulty (I think it's difficult. Only playtesting can prove it.)of converting a lot of people to your state religion early in the game can solve that problem.

And on tithing, again only playtesting can make sure. BTW, in the Economy/Trade, Civilizations, Combat and Radical Ideas threads I posted a large post that includes that large cities would produce much more trade (so solving the ICS problem), so it is possible that a more expensive tithing system as Will proposed could be used without a too big burden to the economy.

About your SE worries. As you might have noticed, I have deleted the Evangelism factor. But I still keep the Nationalism factor which increases Conviction. I hope this isn't a problem cause you (or Raingoon)said yourself that there are too less Conviction increasing options.

To all:

So, we seem to have agreed on all things, I think. The only lack is too little diplomatic proposals. I did some in my last posts. Do we have to find more?

[raingoon]

I don't have any problem with Will's tithing method if something like M@ni@c's increased trade model is put to use. So, yes, it seems we are united so far.

M@ni@c, I've compiled all the diplomatic suggestions we've made on this thread so far. I'm preparing to make a post of diplomacy sometime this evening. Between now and then, if you and Will and Mbrazier and all others have any ideas re diplomatic relations, please post 'em!

P.S., Am going on vacations for the rest of the week, so what I post tonight will be all the revisions from our discussions up to now, plus the new diplomacy section.

Will, when I get the latest version up, can you copy our two posts together for the "final post"? I'll have to leave any final noodling with it to you all, but I'm confident by now you guys can easily speak for me on this model. So add your diplomatic suggestions that come to mind, I'm typing that section and posting it tonight.

[raingoon]

Sorry I didn't have time to get to the diplomacy and the re-post. I'll be back next Monday, but meanwhile I'll have to hand off the diplomacy and leave the final re-posting to you all. Feel free to edit and copy my last version as much as you all think fit. I think the model is fairly complete. Hopefully we've grounded it enough in Civ 2 concepts that Firaxis will have no choice but to acknowledge the genius of our work and include it in Civ 3 post haste!

[will I]

Here's my revised proposal on effects. I've had to wind it up quickly, as I must get going, but I've tried to include all of the consensus changes. I'm sure you all will inform me if I've omitted anything. I did not get finished with tithing, which I'll add tomorrow.

Raingoon's inability to deliver a diplomacy proposal came as something of a surprise. I'll whip something up tommorrow if someone else doesn't do it first.

III. Effects of religion

The player will have several options with regard to each religion. He or she may choose to establish a church or allow religious freedom. Regardless of whethere there is religious freedom or an established church, the player may choose to persecute one or more religions.

A. Under religious freedom

1. Effect on happiness, using current system.
a. For each religion in a city, one unhappy citizen becomes content or, if there are no unhappy citizens, a content citizen becomes happy. This effect continues indefinitely, so that each religion present in a city adds step to the base happiness level of the city.
b. To keep religion from having too great a benefit, the happiness effects described in a will apply to no more than one out of every four citizens in a city. That is, if there are seven citizens and three religions, only two citizens may be made happy.

2. Effect on happiness under alternate systems. Several people have proposed systems under which happiness becomes a percentage factor for each city that affects the productivity, and is not an attribute of the citizens. Under such systems, the conversion of one citizen to a new religion would increase the overall happiness/productivity percentage. When one religion attained majority status in a city, one of that religion's citizens would gain a step in happiness.

3. Effect of religious freedom on conviction. Under religious freedom, the conviction rate for all citizens is 20 percent lower than it would otherwise be.

4. Effect of full toleration. In addition to the effects listed above, if the player is not persecuting any religion, the research output of the religion increases by 10 percent (under the Civ2 system) or the Research SE factor improves by +1.

B. Establishment of a state church.

1. General. Under this system, the state picks one church as its official religion. Establishing a state church does not imply or require persecution of any of the other religions within the civ's territory.

2. Effect on happiness
a. The effects on happiness described above in section 1 cease.
b. Under the Civ2 system, in each city that has at least one citizen who belongs to the state religion, one content citizen becomes happy. Thereafter, an additional citizen becomes happy for every four believers in each city. If a different happiness/productivity system is adopted, proclamation of a state religion increases a city (or civilization) happiness/productivity level by a factor of 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who belong to the state religion.
c. An additional unhappy citizen becomes content if more than 50 percent of the citizens of a city are members of the established church.
d. The established church's evangelism factor increases by 20 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of that civ.
e. Deestablishing the church. A civ may deestablish a church at any time. However, deestablishment shall result in a period of anarchy for one turn.

3. Tithes. A civ that has an established church must pay 20 percent of its total trade as tithes to the church. Under an alternate system, there could be an adjustment to the tax SE factor.

4. Cathedral. Only a civ that has a state religion may build a Cathedral, which has the same effect as in Civ2. If the civ then converts to religious freedom, any cathedrals will generate an amount of gold equal to the number of citizens it would have made happy.

5. Multiple civs with the same state church.
a. A civ may establish a religion as its state church even if another civ has already made that religion its state church. In such cases, the religion will not take any action against either of the civs, and will remain neutral in any conflict between them.
b. If the religion has a holy city, one of the civs may request the excommunication of the other. The religion will demand a contribution related to the number of believers in the excommunicated civ and the religion's attitude toward the possessor of the hold city and the civ that it wishes to excommunicate.
c. A civ that is expelled from a religion may adopt any other extant religion as its state religion without penalty. 75 percent of the citizens of the old church will convert to the new church, while 25 percent will remain faithful to the old church. In any civ voting for expulsion, 25 percent of the members of the old religion will convert to the new religion. The remainder will stay faithful.
d. One of the civs may declare a schism the church. The effects are the same as if the religion had been excommunicated.

D. Persecution.
Under this system, belonging to a persecuted religion is illegal. A government may persecute one or all religions.
1. A persecuted religion's conversion factor is reduced by 25 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of the persecuting civ.
2. In each city that contains members of the persecuted religion, 1.5 content citizens become unhappy for each member of the persecuted religion, reflecting the unhappiness of the persecutees and their friends. (Under a revised happiness/productivity system, persecution results in a decrease in a city or civitlization happiness/productivity level by 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who are subject to persecution.) The city's the research output decreases by 25 percent to reflect the effect of intolerance.
3. Persecution has no positive effect other than those that result from the increase in the number of believers in other religions. If there is a state religion, the state religion is likely to be the chief beneficiary of persecution.
4. If a civ persecutes a religion, its reputation with any civ that has chosen that religion as its state religion will worsen.

D. Religious improvements.

The types of religious improvements remain the same as in Civ1/2 and may be built by any civ that has obtained the necessary technologies. A temple is necessary to obtain the advantages of religion under a state of religious freedom. If a state religion is declared, the temple will make one unhappy citizen content.
A cathedral will have the same effect as in Civ2.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by will (edited August 24, 1999).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by will (edited August 25, 1999).]</font>

[Maniac]

Many questions...

"Each time a citizen of a city converts to a religion that was not previously present"

Does that mean that if before you declared religious freedom you already had Turywenzism and Yahoo, that 2 religions don't give a happiness boost? So does that mean that you only get a bonus for new religions eg if Slinkies appear AFTER you declared Religious Freedom? I hope not so. Would mean a serious drawback for choosing freedom.
And BTW, I thought that under Religious Freedom the unhappy became content and not the content happy. I meant that bonus of 'per religion one unhappy becomes content' as a replacement that you can't build cathedrals under freedom.

"When one religion obtains a majority in a city, the least happy adherent of that religion gets a step upward in happiness."

I thought that bonus of majority = 1 less content counted for rel. freedom AND state religion. BTW, only giving that bonus to freedom would be counterproductive since under freedom the player should try to have as much different religions as possible in his cities and not trying to get a majority.

And didn't you forget the +2 Happiness bonus that makes ruling more cities without extra unhappiness possible? You said yourself that the intention of State Religion is to be chosen by civs with large cities and by perfectionist civs.
Religious Freedom should be chosen by civs with many cities. As in reality ruling a large empire with rel freedom is easier than with a state religion.

"However, deestablishment shall result in a period of civil disorder for two turns."

What exactly do you mean with (two turns of) civil disorder? Do you mean the civ is in anarchy for two turns?

"If the civ then converts to religious freedom, any cathedrals will generate an amount of gold equal to the number of citizens it would have made happy."

You said yourself that the effects of cathedrals are the same as in Civ2, meaning a fix number of citizens (=3) made content (with an additional one in the Age of Faith that ends when you research the Rationalism tech). So why don't just say "equal to the normal upkeep/maintainance cost"?

Oh, I thought it was 1 unhappy instead of 1.5, but I won't argue further about that. It's a detail.

About diplomacy.
It's not the civ itself that can excommunicate (has never happened in history, one not-religious ruler excommunicate another one). What it can do is ASK the religious leader if he would want to excommunicate someone. Normally that should cost money.

And Schism shouldn't be possible only if you are excommunicated. You should be able to do it at any moment you like (except if you are the Defender of the Faith).

So don't forget these 3 diplomatic options you can do to religious leaders :

->excommunication
->schism [isn't really a proposal to the religious leader (you're the one that decides to schism), but I think you should tell the leader in the diplomacy screen that you are schism-ing]
->ask to be defender of the faith (BTW which positives and negatives has that?)

[will I]

Here's my diplomacy proposal:

IV. Religious diplomacy.

A. Major and minor religions
The diplomatic options available for interacting with a religion depend on the size of the religion.

1. Minor religions. All religions start as minor religions.

2. Major religion. A religion becomes a major religion when it has a number of adherents greater than the total number of citizens in the world divided by the starting number of civs. It remains a major religion even if an increase in world population or decrease in the number of adherents results in the religion's share of global population falling below 1/(starting number of civs).

3. Proclamation of the holy city. When a religion becomes a major religion, the city where that religion started is proclaimed the holy city of that religion. If that city has been destroyed, the extant city nearest to the founding city's location becomes the holy city.

4. Building a Great Shrine. Any city that has proclaimed a state religion may build a Great Shrine, which shall cost a number of resources equal to a wonder for that age. When the Great Shrine is complete, the holy city for the state religion is transferred to the city with the Great Shrine, which remains the holy city for that religion unless the city is destroyed. If that occurs, a new holy city can be proclaimed by building a Great Shrine in another city.

B. Diplomatic options for both major and minor religions.

1. Request a donation. Any religion may request a donation from any civ. If the religion has a large number of believers in that civ, or if the religion is the state religion of that civ, refusal to give the donation will have a negative effect on the religion's attitude toward that civ.

2. Voluntary donation. Any civ may give a donation to any religion. The donation will be treated as tithes and used to generate a ministry to a city chosen by the civ.

3. Request a ministry. Any civ may request a religion to send a ministry to one of its cities. The ministry will charge an amount of gold equal to the cost of a ministry, and adjusted upward or downward depending on the religion's attitude toward the requesting civ and whether the religion is the state religion of that civ.

C. Additional diplomatic options for major religions.

1. A major religion may:

a. Request a civ to conduct a jihad against a civ that is persecuting the religion. The religion may offer to fund the jihad from its tithes.

b. Request a civ to defend another civ from a jihad.

c. Request a civ to conduct a crusade to take control of the holy city from another civ. A religion will request a jihad if the civ that possesses the holy city (1) is persecuting that religion, (2) has a bad reputation with that religion, or (3) has no members of that religion outside of the holy city.

d. Demand that a civ sign a treaty with another civ.

e. Failure to accede to these requests will hurt a civ's reputation with the religion. The effect will be greater if that religion is the state religion of the civ.

2. A civ may request a major religion to:

a. intervene in a war by demanding that its opponent sign a treaty.

b. pronounce a blessing, which would increase happiness in that civ for a fixed number of turns.

c. send a ministry to a city owned by another civ.

d. excommunicate another civ.

e. proclaim the civ defender of the faith. A civ may only request to be made the defender of the faith for its state religion. If it subsequently deestablishes the state religion, it ceases to be the defender of the faith. The defender of the faith can perform options c and d free of charge, and has the option of choosing the destination city for any ministry generated by tithes paid to the religion. If the defender of the faith fails to comply with a request from the religion, it loses its status as defender of the faith and its reputation with the religion suffers greatly.

f. loan money to the civ.

g. the religion will charge the civ money for options a, b, c, d, and e, and interest for option f. The amount will depend on the civ's reputation with the religion, whether the religion is that civ's state religion, whether that civ possesses the religion's holy city, and whether the civ is the defender of the faith.

[will I]

M@ni@c:

Thanks for your comments. I have, for the most part, adopted your suggestions and amended my proposal accordingly. However, I like the idea of having the gold output of cathedrals under toleration being equal to the number of believers they affect because that number changes over time.

Please read through the effects section again. Your comments made me think of a few other useful changes. I look forward to seeing what you have to say about diplomacy. Once those ideas have been debated, I'll revise diplomacy and make the changes that Raingoon endorsed (primarily having to do with the passive conversion calculation and martyrdom), and then post the entirety as a joint proposal.

[MBrazier]

Will: Good job with the diplomatic section. However...

1) Am I correct in assuming that a civ may build the Great Shrine for its state religion even if the state religion is still minor? If so, I'd suggest a slight change as follows. It should cost less money to build a religion's great shrine if there isn't one yet, than if one already exists; half as much, perhaps. If (and only if) a state religion has reached major status but has no shrine, it should build the shrine itself out of the tithes, not get it for free. And the expanded diplomatic options ought to be tied not simply to major status, but to having an intact shrine -- which means destroying a shrine temporarily silences a religion in diplomatic circles. (It should also, of course, be considered an atrocity and turn the religion against you for good. But we have to give the act _some_ good effect, otherwise nobody would ever do it.)

2) Surely the first thing any major religion would ask a civ for is to be made the state religion of that civ?

3) Religions excommunicate people, not nations. Nations are put under interdict. The effect of an interdict is, clearly, the inverse of a blessing (decreasing happiness) except that it lasts as long as the religion wants it to.

About the rules for schism in your effects post: I'm with M@ni@c here, schism is something a civ can do to a religion, not something a religion would do on its own. I suggest that "Declare Schism" should be an option on the religions screen, available whenever you have a state religion of major status. The effect would be to create a new religion named "(religion), (civ) schism", switch your state religion to that new religion, and convert most members of the former state religion within your borders to the schism. A percentage equal to the old religion's Conviction rating would hold out, unconverted.

[MBrazier]

ceci n'est pas une message
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MBrazier (edited August 25, 1999).]</font>

[Maniac]

Will, it is impossible to make the gold output of cathedrals equal to how many citizens it affects since in the everythingx10 system trade, so also the upkeep cost of buildings is x10. And in a x10 system 3 or 4 gold means nothing. BTW I said it was to simulate tourism to old cathedrals under religious freedom. I don’t see why there would be more tourism in the Age of Faith.
Instead of bothering you with saying “I don’t like this” and “I don’t like that” I have edited your version of III and IV to what I would like.

III. Effects of religion

The player will have several options with regard to each religion. He or she may choose to establish a state religion or allow religious freedom. Regardless of whether there is religious freedom or an state religion, the player may choose to persecute one or more religions.

A. Under religious freedom


1. Effect on happiness, using current system.

a. For each religion in a city, one unhappy citizen becomes content or, if there are no unhappy citizens, a content citizen becomes happy. This effect continues indefinitely, so that each religion present in a city adds step to the base happiness level of the city.
b. To keep religion from having too great a benefit, the happiness effects described in a will apply to no more than one out of every four citizens in a city. That is, if there are seven citizens and three religions, only two citizens may be made happy.
c. Civilizations with religious freedom get a +2 Happiness bonus (see the SE thread for more about the Happiness SE factor).
d. Cathedrals can not be be built under religious freedom nor do they have any effect on population happiness. Already existing Cathedrals generate an amount of money equal to their normal upkeep cost to simulate tourism.

2. Effect on happiness under alternate systems.

A few people have proposed systems under which happiness becomes a percentage factor for each city that affects the productivity, and is not an attribute of the citizens. Under such systems, the conversion of one citizen to a new religion would increase the overall happiness/productivity percentage.

3. Effect of religious freedom on conviction.

Under religious freedom, the conviction rate for all citizens is 20 percent lower than it would otherwise be.

4. Effect of full toleration.

In addition to the effects listed above, if the player is not persecuting any religion, the research output of the religion increases by 10 percent (under the Civ2 system) or the Research SE factor improves by +1.

B. Establishment of a state religion.

1.General.

Under this system, the state picks one religion as its official state religion. Establishing a state religion does not imply or require persecution of any of the other religions within the civ's territory.

2. Effect on happiness

a. The effects on happiness described above under religious freedom cease.
b. Under the Civ2 system, in each city that has at least one citizen who belongs to the state religion, one content citizen becomes happy. Thereafter, an additional citizen becomes happy for every four believers in each city. If a different happiness/productivity system is adopted, proclamation of a state religion increases a city (or civilization) happiness/productivity level by a factor of 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who belong to the state religion.
c. An additional unhappy citizen becomes content if more than 50 percent of the citizens of a city are members of the state religion.
d. The state religion's evangelism factor increases by 20 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of that civ.
e. Deestablishing the state religion. A civ may deestablish a state religion at any time. However, deestablishment shall result in a period of Anarchy (see SE thread) for one turn.

3. Tithes.

A civ that has an established church must pay 20 percent of its total taxes as tithes to the church. When using the SE factors, the civ gets –2 Tax.

4. Cathedral.

Only a civ that has a state religion may build Cathedrals, which has the same effect as in Civ2. That means 4 unhappy citizens are made content. When you discover the tech advance Rationalism, the Age of Faith ends and Cathedrals only make 3 citizens content.

5. Multiple civs with the same state church.

a. A civ may establish a religion as its state church even if another civ has already made that religion its state church. In such cases, the religion will not take any action against either of the civs, and will remain neutral in any conflict between them.
b. If the religion has a holy city, one of the civs may request the excommunication of the other civ’s leader. The religion will demand a contribution related to the number of believers in the excommunicated civ and the religion's attitude toward the civ that asks the excommunication and the civ that it wishes to excommunicate.
c. A civ whose leader is excommunicated from a religion may adopt any other extant religion as its state religion without penalty. 75 percent of the citizens of the old church will convert to the new church, while 25 percent will remain faithful to the old church.
d. Civs may declare a schism the church. The effects are the same as if the civ had been excommunicated.

C. Persecution.


Under this system, belonging to a persecuted religion is illegal. A government may persecute any number of religions.

1. A persecuted religion's conversion factor is reduced by 25 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of the persecuting civ.
2. In each city that contains members of the persecuted religion, the persecuted citizens get one lower happiness level (means happy citizens become content, content unhappy and unhappy very unhappy). (Under a revised happiness/productivity system, persecution results in a decrease in a city or civilization happiness/productivity level by 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who are subject to persecution.)
The city's the research output decreases by 25 percent to reflect the effect of intolerance.
3. Persecution has no positive effect other than those that result from the increase in the number of believers in other religions. If there is a state religion, the state religion is likely to be the chief beneficiary of persecution.
4. If a civ persecutes a religion, its reputation with any civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion will worsen. Also the religious leader of the persecuted religion may ask a civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion to begin a holy war/Jihad.

D. Religious improvements.

The types of religious improvements remain the same as in Civ1/2 and may be built by any civ that has obtained the necessary technologies. Under Religious Freedom a temple is also necessary to obtain the advantages of religion.

IV. Religious diplomacy.


A. Major and minor religions


The diplomatic options available for interacting with a religion depend on the size of the religion.

1. Minor religions.

All religions start as minor religions.

2. Major religion.

A religion becomes a major religion when it has a number of adherents greater than the total number of citizens in the world divided by the starting number of civs. It remains a major religion even if an increase in world population or decrease in the number of adherents results in the religion's share of global population falling below 1/(starting number of civs).

3. Proclamation of the holy city.

When a religion becomes a major religion, the city where that religion started is proclaimed the holy city of that religion. That means that that city gets an automatic Great Schrine. If that city has been destroyed, or if another civ has conquered the holy city which automatically destroys the Schrine, you must build a Great Schrine to have a new holy city.
If the holy city is recaptured, the Schrine automatically reappears.

4. Building a Great Shrine.

If the original Great Schrine is destroyed, any civ that has proclaimed the religion state religion may build a Great Shrine, which shall cost a number of resources equal to a wonder for that age. When the Great Shrine is complete, the holy city for the state religion is has becoem the city with the Great Shrine, which remains the holy city for that religion unless the city is destroyed or captured. If that occurs, a new holy city can be proclaimed by building a Great Shrine in another city.
Proposed effects for the Great Schrine : all unhappy citizens become content (as Shakespeare’s Theatre) or tax output doubled.

B. Diplomatic options for both major and minor religions.

1. Request a donation.

Any religion may request a donation from any civ. If the religion is the state religion of that civ, refusal to give the donation will have a negative effect on the religion's attitude toward that civ.

2. Voluntary donation.

Any civ may give a donation to any religion. The donation will be treated as tithes and used to generate a ministry to a city chosen by the civ. That city may also be a foreign city. So it’s possible to annoy another player by sending ministries of religions he wants to eliminate.

3. Request a ministry.

Any civ may request a religion to send a ministry to one of its cities. The ministry will charge an amount of gold equal to the cost of a ministry, and adjusted upward or downward depending on the religion's attitude toward the requesting civ and whether the religion is the state religion of that civ.

C. Additional diplomatic options for major religions.


1. A major religion may:

a. Request a civ to conduct a jihad/holy war against another civ. The religion may offer to fund the jihad from it’s tithes. A religion will ask a Jihad when (1) that civ is persecuting the religion, or (2) if that civ has captured the holy city, or (3) if that civ has repeatedly done things that harmed the religion’s attitude towards that civ.

b. Request a civ to defend another civ from a jihad.

c. Request a civ to conduct a crusade to take control of the holy city from another religion.

d. Demand that a civ sign a treaty with another civ.

e. Ask to become the civ’s state religion.

f. Failure to accede to these requests will hurt a civ's reputation with the religion. The effect will be greater if that religion is the state religion of the civ.

2. A civ may request a major religion to:

a. intervene in a war by demanding that its opponent sign a treaty.

b. pronounce a blessing, which would increase happiness in that civ for a fixed number of turns.

c. send a ministry to a city owned by another civ.

d. excommunicate another civ.’s leader if he has the religion as his state religion. Excommunication makes all the followers of the religion that has excommunicated have one lower level in happiness.

e. Repeal the excommunication that the religious leader has done to him.

f. proclaim the civ defender of the faith. A civ may only request to be made the defender of the faith for it’s state religion. If it subsequently deestablishes the state religion, it ceases to be the defender of the faith. If the defender of the faith ask something to the religion that costs money, he only has to pay half of the normal amount. If the defender of the faith fails to comply with a request from the religion, it loses its status as defender of the faith and its reputation with the religion suffers greatly.

g. loan money to the civ.

h. the religion will charge the civ money for options a, b, c, d, e and f and interest for option.

g The amount will depend on the civ's reputation with the religion, whether the religion is that civ's state religion, whether that civ possesses the religion's holy city, and whether the civ is the defender of the faith.