SPACE EXPLOITATION ver 2.0 hosted by Smilo

[Tornado7]

Not neccesarily. In strictly "now" terms, a one-way trip to Ganymede takes about 5 or 6 years. AC is a couple thousand years away.
Obviously, advanced tech will cut down on this, but the time scale is still on different orders of magnitude.
Anyway, I think it adds a nobler goal to the game than just beating the living dodo out of the computer. Granted, that's a fun thing to do, and every once in a while I take great pleasure in doing that, but I want a little more of a goal to the modern to future era than just out-nuking the mongols or getting the first strike on the celts. (Both of which happended in the last game I finished)
Utopian peace-loving intentions aside, the prospect of interplanetary warfare is really, really cool.
And as for the endgame, you could always change the goal to discovering and building a FTL starship. This sets an anchor point for a whole series of future techs.
The whole idea could be colonizing the other planets and looking for alien artifacts or something, researching them, and using that tech to build the blasted thing.
This means going off to other planets and colonizing and terraforming them to find the artifacts.
And like I said, they could cut down on the city improvments on colonies to make city managment a helluva lot easier.
Stuff like combining all the happiness improvments into one thing and stuff like that.

[Maniac]

You're right Smilo. Here some usable ideas for Civ3. I posted it also on the OTHER thread.

New victory condition : colonizing and terraforming Mars. Therefore a second map is needed off course.

Colonizing is simple. You must have a certain amount of people on Mars. Wonders like the Space Elevator, buildings like Aerospace Complex or units like Space Transport could increase emigration to Mars.

Terraforming will take a bit longer.
1) You need to bring oxygen into the Mars atmosphere. This could be simulated by collecting 200 oxygen points.
Every forest produces 1 oxygen per turn.
2) You need to decrease the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Haven't got an idea how to do that. I am no scientist.
3) You need to warm Mars by 50 degrees. This is necessary to make Mars warm enough for life and also to make ice fluid.
This could be simulated by collecting 500 warmth points.
Every population unit produces 1 warmth point per turn.
*) There should be several city(on Mars called base) improvements speeding up the terraformation. That means Mars should have different unit and building types as earth.

Even if it isn't your intention to win by colonizing and terrafoming Mars, you have a reason to go to Mars. Mars should be full of Minerals and Resources that can be transported to Earth.

[Maniac]

No, I don't like that alien artifact idea. Very unrealistic. I'll stick with my Mars victory condition. I don't think I want to look to alien artifacts throughout the entire solar system. And colonizing and terraforming Mars alone will be enough work on it's own. I think I'll be satisfied with two maps : Earth and mars.

[Tornado7]

Alright, that was just an idea, but I would still like alot of bodies in the solar system.

[Tornado7]

oops, double post.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Tornado7 (edited August 02, 1999).]</font>

[The Ellimist]

Hmm... I think I implied that normal means without a wonder. You can just build your mining ship, launch it toward any old asteroid, and set up a mining center.

I think there should be a wonder that increases the benefits of doing it this way, however.

[smilo]

Harel,

I never ment that the discussions are worthless for civIII, I said the way you discuss is not contributing to its fullest extend.
Add to what you write a proposal so that what you explained can actually be used in civIII. As you said yourself, I cannot (and will not) add physics theories to the summary. So without a clear proposal your discussions will be lost in space.

Discussing is fine, but not if it is for the mere purpose of discussing : it needs an appropriate goal. And that is my final word on it.

[Maniac]

Westergaard, the Space Elevator Wonder should make bringing objects into orbit much simplier.

[Gordon the Whale]

I don't thing there's really a problem with CO2 on Mars... The biggest problem with Mars, and the moon, is that there's not enough atmosphere of any kind! A good bit more CO2 on Mars would cause better heat retention (greenhouse effect) and warm the place up a bit, it's mighty chilly there now. Add to the air pressure, which is a bit low. Also, CO2 isn't particularly bad for you, especially in moderation. It's pretty much inert under typical conditions. But if you do want to get rid of it, those trees make Oxygen by breaking down CO2 and water, so getting rid of it is a necessary stage to getting oxygen. However, it doesn't result in any net production of atmosphere, just changes what was already there. To really get a good atmosphere, you'd have to pull oxygen out of the rocks, or better yet, find a good way to get nitrogen or argon. Oxygen really isn't all that good for you. There's a theory that this could be accomplished on the moon by setting off a nuclear bomb (or anything else really hot; the nuclear bomb has the unfortunate side effect of being radioactice) on the moon's shady south pole, which is (presumably) covered in ice and frozen gasses, which would melt, boil, and make a nice cozy atmosphere which would last for thousands of years. That would make terraforming the moon a viable wonder, which would only be built once and then end up with a playable moon. I don't know if there's any realistic way to do the same on Mars, Total Recall notwithstanding.
Venus could also be terraformed, if only there were a good way to get rid of some of it's atmosphere... Take it to Mars, maybe... I can just see a big vaccuum cleaner going from one to the other. ;-)

[EnochF]

Well, in game terms, you could assign Engineers to work a land tile on Mars and convert some of its pent-up oxygen, carbon dioxide or nitrogen into atmosphere. Let's say a standard "sand" or "desert" square will get you 1 point of atmosphere every two turns; a "rock" or "canyon" square will get you 1 point per turn; but an "ice cap" square, such as occurs near the poles, will give you 5 points of atmosphere per turn. And your goal is to expand the atmosphere to, I dunno, 500 or 1000 points, at which point you can plant forests and convert the atmosphere to something breathable, at which point you've successfully terraformed Mars and win the game.

The problem with this path to victory is that... well, what happens when two competing civs are on Mars, terraforming it? They're not really competing, are they? How do we decide who just terraformed Mars? Was it the civ that completed the last "point" of atmosphere, or the civ that planted the most forests, or the civ with the most cities on Mars?

I still think sending a ship to Alpha Centauri is the best measure of victory. But perhaps we could make terraforming Mars a necessary step toward that goal...

[Gregurabi]

I don't like the Mars colonization ending because it's too arbitrary. Why should the game end just because you've got (say) 50 people on Mars? In other words, what's so special about that 50th person which makes the game end? The victory conditions should be clear and undisputable -- conquering the whole planet, or being the first person to accomplish some monumental feat, etc. -- not just "hang around on Mars for a few turns".

Maybe that's why I dislike the CTP alien life victory ending -- not enough feeling of having accomplished something which fundamentally and irreversibly alters the world. Shrug.

For those who are interested in the physics that's been discussed (in some cases butchered) for the last few days, check out The Particle Adventure at http://pdg.lbl.gov/cpep/adventure_home.html -- it starts out a little bit slowly, but it's a very good introduction to quantum physics. It omits all the math, and presents only the concepts; a smart 8-year-old could follow most of it. Well worth reading, even for those who think they already know this stuff. (There have been some advances in this area since I graduated college in '93, so I learned a few things.) If you want to continue learning after reading the Particle Adventure, then please go to your local library and find a good book on quantum physics. (I haven't read it myself, but I've heard good things about Feynmann's QED (quantum electrodynamics). That may be a good one to continue with.)

[Maniac]

Gordon the Whale :

CO2 not really a problem!!!!!!???
95% of the atmosphere is CO2. The goal of terraformation is to make it possible to breathe without dieing.

Good tree idea! A forest breaks down one CO2 point each turn and produces one oxygen point.

You're right the atmosphere has to become thicker. I forgot that in my original post.
So now there are 4 necessities for a successful terraformation.

1) collect 200 oxygen points to simulate 20% oxygen in the atmosphere.
2) collect 500 warmth points to simulate the raise of temperature by 50 degrees.
3) destroy 500( I think this number is too much cause the atmosphere is thinner so there is not that much CO2, that is, compared to earth's atmosphere) or 100 CO2 points.
4) raise the tickness of the atmosphere to 600? hPa. I thought that was the pressure needed for oxygen to get in the blood.
Means collecting an additional ?(can somebody tell me thickness of the Mars atmosphere in hPa?) atmosphere points.

BTW, perhaps the terraformation processes of Venus and Mars could be the same. They both suffer an abundance of CO2.

EnochF :

Good idea for collecting atmosphere points!

Really good question about how is decided who wins.
Perhaps it should depend on two factors.
1) Who has the largest population?
2) Who has done the biggest job for terraforming Mars? = who has collected the most points?

Point 2 makes sure the player wants to get on Mars as quickly as possible to have a headstart on other competitors.
Point 1 is automatically needed cause humans produce warmth, adding warmt points.
Bases are also automatically needed if there are certain city/base improvements speeding up the terraformation process. That way you want as much bases as possible.

Perhaps this could lead to wars on Mars...

Don't worry. I still want the possibility to build a spaceship to go to AC, but it should be more futuristic than the Apollo Program.

Terraforming Mars is more realistic and less futuristic than AC.

[smilo]

What about the following victory condition : you have to build an interstellar ship to sent people to Alpha Centauri, BUT the ship reauires a huge amount of a very rare mineral,metal, whatever. THE PROBLEM is that the stuff is only abundant on mars. You can also make it artificially but it costs huge amounts of money. So you have a choice either you fly to mars and set-up a large number of mines, or you make it on earth but need zillion $(more expensive than flying to mars). When you have enough of the stuff you can put in the final part of the interstellar ship and launch it. The first to get to AC wins.

Any other planets might be possible to, like jupiter from which you need to pump zillion of litres of a specific molecule.

[Maniac]

Gregurabi, you haven't paid attention.
Having a certain amount of people is only a part of the victory condition. The real goal is terraforming Mars. Isn't that a monumental feat?

I even doubt if I would include having a certain population necessary for winning.
You'll need them anyway for warmth and bases.


Another reason for getting a part of your population to Mars is to avoid population pressure on earth.
Let me explain how I want to simulate population pressure. I already have explained it on the SE/Government v2.1 thread but I doubt people are reading it.

Just as in in CivX I want buildings that determine your population limit.
These are my proposals.
8 : Aquaduct
12 : Sewer System
20 : Apartment Block
30 : Arcology

I want cities to grow further beyond the 'pop limit' even if they don't have eg an aquaduct.
As a drawback the people beyond the pop limit would be all Revolutionaries = very unhappy citizens. This is to simulate that they are angry because they haven't clean water (Aquaduct, Sewer System) and living space (Apartment Block, Arcology).
If a city has too many Revolutionaries, it revolts and forms a new major or minor civ.

As you can see there is no building to grow over 40. So all citizens beyond that are Revolutionaries. = pop pressure. The only reason to get rid of them is to send them to Mars.

Second reason for going to Mars = pop pressure.
Thirth reason should be that there are many resources on Mars that can be transported to earth. So even if you don't want to win by terraforming, you still have a reason to be there.

I see you guys thinking : "Oh, just don't give those Revolutionaries food and they'll disappear."
I have a rather radical solution for that.
Cities should continue to grow even if there isn't enough food. Off course that people won't be happy and will also be Revolutionaries.
It's not because there isn't a food surplus that cities stop growing. Look at Iran. You could say they have a 'pop boom' although there isn't enough food. Same for whole Africa, India and China.

So two ways to simulate pop pressure :
1) Revolutionaries above pop limit.
2) Revolutionaries if no food.

First reson to go to Mars = winning.
Second reason for going to Mars = pop pressure.
Thirth reason should be that there are many resources on Mars that can be transported to earth. So even if you don't want to win by terraforming, you still have an economic and industrial reason to be there.

You see Mars perfectly fits in the game.

[Westergaard]

I think it's a good idea to have other planets for the player to colonize. But on a small scale though, it is very hard to survive on another planet.

Also, I once read somewhere that the best place for human settlements would actually be in near earth orbit, where it would be protected from radiation by Earth's magnetic field.

It would be cool if you could launch orbital cities like those but at a very, very high cost from earth (it's very expensive to launch anything from Earth because of it's gravitaion). If you wanted cheaper orbital cities you'd have to build mines on the Moon, or maybe on Mars.

This way the race to colonize space could be fleshed out a little bit, starting with small extra-terrestrial mines and orbital manufacturing plants, which later became huge cities in the sky.

This would also cut some of the micromanagement of having multiple maps, if you only had mines and very small settlements on the other maps.