UNITS (ver. 2.0): hosted by JT3

[Ekmek]

I'm all for the mines (there should be wire obstacles, tank traps etc.) The closest I ever saw them simulated in Civ2 was the scenario 2194 days (great WW2!) using Anti-tank ditches instead of walls. The other I tried by making mines one unit and obstacles another. They had a movement of 1 which was a problem but no attacking ability. Mines had a high firepower and used for defense. Obstacles had hit points and also no attacking aility. Both had a defense between 5 to 10. But still is wasn't satisfying. I think the Engineer is better. A Combat Engineer unit I suggested earlier could be used. It could also breach obstacles, serve as a sapper (both in the early days when they would seige castles digging "saps", diagonal trenches and under walls) or as a demolitions expert (similar to a spy).

Poison gas: Yeah I feel that the WW1 scenario although a great icon didn't epresent it well. It should not kill units, but cause serious damage (and affect morale/cohesion), but it also should pollute the terrain it was used on (I tried in vain to do this through the events.txt no luck). The pollution should be contamination (of course there are persistent and non-persistent agents but Civ2 would probably stick with persistent agents to make poison gas different than a bombardment). Contaiminated terrain should weaken the strengthen of a unit if the cross into (unless they have NBC gear which could be another advance or you can have a chemical school as an improvements and have units train there).

As another topic: The ability of Spies should each be a toggle (I.e. cause revolt, invetigate city etc.) each one you could select as a separate attribute as to whether or not a unit could do it. This would be an easy way to simulate strategic bombers (I.e. they could damage city improvements, drop propaganda leaflets/incite a revolt, investigate cities/aerial recon).

It would be easy by I still favor adding a tactical level option and a bettercombat system.


------------------
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
- Jim Morrison

[Theben]

I feel it necessary to remind everyone that we are talking about a strategic level game here. The ideas are good, but try to think if there are ways it can be already considered to be in the game. Mines, FE, can be assumed part of the "fort" or "city walls" of a defense. Want to use them to slow the enemy? Pillage the road instead, which effectively "mines" it. You will need combat engineers to sweep the mines clean (rebuild the road). Until then, all units must be careful of the "mines" (slowed due to no road).

[CivPerson]

Pardon me if I duplicate ideas here. Think of it as an agreement to similar ideas.

- Have a new unit called Ambulance (0/0/4 - treats all terrain as roads) when you discover the advancement called Red Cross. This unit would be allowed to carry (1) INJURED land unit. Make it an international incident if another Civ Destroys this unit when it is loaded only.

- A Triplane unit then a Biplane unit then a before the fighter

- Jet Fighters that can carry 2 missiles

- An Apache Attack helicopter upgrade to the helicopter

- Air reconnaissance Units in advancement order:
1. Balloon (0/1/10)
2. Blimp (0/1/15)
3. Seisina Plane (0/1/20)
4. SR-71 (0/1/30)

- Train (0/4/1). This unit can transport say up to 8 land units. Have it restricted to RR movement with the ability to load and unload land units anywhere along the track. This will make up for other land units not having the unlimited movement when outside a city.

- Land Transport Units for non mech. units (i.e. riflemen, marines, etc., in advancement order:
1. 5-Ton truck (0/5/3) Carries 4 units
2. Bradley armored transport (0/6/3)Carries 6 units (Treats all terrain like roads)

-Jet/Plane Transport Units that can carry SEVERAL land units from City to City (and air strips), in advancement order:
1. C-130 Plane (0/5/10) Carries 2 units
2. C-141 Jet (0/6/15) Carries 4 units
3. C-5 Jet (0/8/20) Carries 8 units

- Helicopter Transport Unit same idea as the jet except it can load/unload on any Unoccupied land square.
Helicopter Trans (0/6/10) Carries 4 units

- Sea Mines (0/12/0) Built like all other units (has maintenance - just like missiles)
*Must be launched by ship or plan when on a water square
*Invisible once launched (even to the Civ that built it)
*Can hurt all sea units that passes over it (even the Civ that built it)
*Once launched it cannot be removed until it is hit by a ship or until...

-Sea Miner Unit (0/8/4) When it passes over a Sea Mine it removes it.

-Engineer Unit improvements:
1. Allow to build canals so that ships can pass through land.
2. Allow to build land mine fields hit of 8
*The land mine square can not have Irrigation or Mining improvements at the same time.
*Visible only to the Civ that built it.
*Can hurt all Land Units that passes over it (except engineers w/miner tech)
*The Civ that built it can also be damaged.
*Remains active until hit by a unit or removed by an engineer with mining tech.
*No maintenance required
3. Allow a future improvement (Miner Tech) to allow Engineers to search and remove mines.

Can you say?
- FROGMEN (3/3/3) which can go on land or sea (can get lost at sea) , upgradable to Hovercrafts (5/4/6)

[cloneodo]

If there were to be mines, would the population become unhappier the more mines you laid. Perhaps a Propoganda Wonder could be built which would negate the unhappiness caused by the laying of mines.

[Mo]

The blimb/zepplin unit should be able to lightly bombard a city not just recon. In return they should be easy targets for fighters if not escorted.

[JPetroski]

Hey, give me some credit on that tank ditches! Im the one who used it first (to my knowleadge) in "Up The Deadly Boot", and was credited in the 2194 Days oF War readme =)

------------------
John Petroski
JPski7@aol.com

[Iceman88888888]

How about having spies abit like caravans in CTP? Like Tell them where to go/wat to do etc. And they may/may not get their

[Maniac]

diodorus siculus requested on SE thread!

[loinburger]

Poison Gas: Would this really cause pollution? Nerve Gas dissipates in minutes, and Mustard Gas dissipates in days to weeks in the worst of conditions. If the game went day by day then pollution would make sense coming from this stuff, but normally it goes year by year and all pollution would be long gone (unless you use Uranium Dust or something, I suppose). However, it should be possible to tweak a weapon so that it causes pollution for purposes of creating scenarios.

[Theben]

Iceman88888888,
Check out the DIPLOMACY thread. I've asked for spies (& caravans in TRADE) to be replaced by spy MISSIONS, which IMHO would be more realistic, allow more options, and require much less micrio-management on the player's part. Kind of like a fire-and-forget spy.

[jpk]

Hopefully this is the right place for this suggestion.

The units in Civ II have predetermined offensive and defensive capabilites. The result is that when you get some advance, say conscription, the player knows, in advance, the offensive and defensive capabilites of riflemen. I propose randomizing this as in the following example:

Suppose that a rifleman normally has 5 offensive points and 4 defensive points. (Bear with me in case I got the exact number wrong.) At the beginning of the game the computer a random number say between 4 and 6 or the offensive capabilities of every rifleman in the game and a random number between 3 and 5 for the defensive capabilities of every rifleman in the game. Distribution needn't be uniform and the choices needn't be independent.

The effect of this would be to introduce greater variation into the game. People who play the game repeatedly would have to figure out in each game the particular capabilites of riflemen. The result would be that players would have to adapt their strategies to the capabilites of the units.

While I use riflemen as an example, this procedure could be followed for every military unit.

[The Brain]

MINES- Mines would be built as a normal units but when it is finished you are asked where you want to put it. If you put it in the city radias it causes unhappiness (unless you have the Propaganda Wonder as mentioned in other peoples post). Your units would be able to pass over it since they know where it is. If an enemy unit passes over it, KABOOM! The unit is severly damaged or destroyed. The downside is that it destroys one improvement in that square.

If the mine is placed in the city radias of an enemy, chances are they would fine it right? Well, if THEY found it (be a 50-50 chance if they did) it becomes theirs and they can use it against you.

If it's placed in territory that is not yours or theirs. Chances are that you could set the mine of and your units could get damaged or destroyed. Also, chances are that a neutal units could hit it and be destroyed. Your reputation probably wouldn't be hurt since they wouldn't know.

If placed in the sea it becomes a sea mine. Your ships are somewhat in danger of hitting it due to ocean currents and the large size of ships. If it goes off and is right next to the shore, one of you water improvements (port facility, harobr, etc.) is destroyed. All the other things for sea mines are the same as land mines.

Other units could be developed if the mine units is used. Anti-mine tanks, metal detector units, hand gernade units to find or set off the mines.

[Theben]

jpk,
That's not a bad idea and this is the right place to post it. It will also depend on what combat system Firaxis eventually uses, since there are at least 2 others in the the COMBAT thread that are approved by players.

Brain,
That's sounds like it should be a tile improvement. Minefields should cause unhappiness, but there's no logical reason for an enemy to be able to use your minefield against you; you already know where it is (this is assuming that you don't lose your old mine maps as has happened in reality. You might introduce the risk of being hit by your own mines). The field also shouldn't destroy any TI's or units; more like spy sabotage or "bombardment"; can damage a unit but never destroy it, it also might lower the morale of the unit for a turn. Farmers can still farm in minefields, they just risk losing their lives is all. Hence the unhappiness if a minefield is in a(ny) city radius.

Lastly, instead of creating new units soley for minelaying/sweeping just say that any military or engineer can do it. Much simpler.

[loinburger]

I'm not sure if mines should destroy terrain improvements. Perhaps it could be an option, as in if you're mining enemy territory and there's a road on the square then you could mine the road, the mines go off, no more road. But I don't see how mines would destroy a forest or farm (farm maybe, if you've got enough of them, but forest?)

A possibility which would be more viable than having a mine destroy a random terrain improvement or having terrain improvement destruction be a mining option is if a mine degraded a movement terrain improvement down to a Path (see terrain improvements) or down to the next lowest level of move improvement (rail would go to road, etc.). I personally am in favor of everything getting blown down to a Path, but that would require that Path be a terrain improvement, which may not be the case.

[wesley32]

I'm all for mines. I've tried to create them in Civ II with some success. I think they should destroy any enemy ground unit that crosses it's path. Kind of like a nuke, it destroys the unit automatically regardless of the units defense and hit points put just not pollute or destroy units within multiple squares. I also like the idea of apache's and
jets that can carry cruise missles (laser guided bombs). I also think Civ III must have a radar device of some sort.

--------------------------------------------
Play 21st Century Imperialism on the net at http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/3523/tci.html