RELIGION (ver2.0) Hosted by Stefu

[Stefu]

OK, ideas that come here will not go to first summary, but second summary, which will be later.

First of all, here are the posts that didn't make it for the first summary:

CormacMacArt
Civer
posted June 11, 1999 09:29

Paraclet - listen, I would love to debate religion with you. Tell you what, I will put in a topic under your name in
the off topic section, OK? There you can explain to me the existance of gods in the story of Buddah's
enlightenment.
Bigcivfan
Junior Civer
posted June 13, 1999 18:18

I think that religion should be expanded in Civ III because a majority of human interactions throughout World
History were based on religion. I like the idea at the top of the thread which applied attributes when you invented
a religion. Perhaps a system where you started with a balanced religion and giving it strengths in one area gave it
deficiencies in another. Also a list of particulars should be included for the player to choose from, such as Caste
System or Human Sacrifice (gasp!!!), that give bonuses and penalties. The ideas on holy shrines, religious
interaction, and missionaries and Conviction/Devotion rates are excellent ideas that add another interesting
demension to the game. I think that actual religions of the world should not be used as this could be offensive to
people, being that religion is a very sacred topic. How about when more and more science is discovered, (Biology,
Anthropolgy) more and more percent of the world become athiest. This reduces the bonuses that a religion gives
you, put also offsets penalties, such as relations. However, a civ can attempt to suppress athieism as they can
attempt to suppress a religion....
Bigcivfan
Junior Civer
posted June 13, 1999 18:34

After reading the postings on this site I am a bit confused. Most of the postings are religious arguements, and not
contributions to the game design of, what we must all admit, is our religion (sort of, we are all very devoted),
CIVILIZATION. Maybe, if we don't want to make religion such a micro-management part of the game we should
include it in a menu called Culture. Different (hopefully fictious) religions make up a percentage of your culture
giving it bonuses a penalties. Their are other key ideas in the Culture menu (?any ideas?) that are all tied
togeather and the religion aspect plays an important part. The more religions your culture is made up off, the
more conflict possible, but you also gain bonuses in trade and science for having and tolerating different points of
view.
Bigcivfan

[This message has been edited by Bigcivfan (edited June 13, 1999).]
CormacMacArt
Civer
posted June 14, 1999 10:00

What is it with the bonuses and penalties? Don't you realize that simply interacting with them will CREATE bonuses
and penalties?
NotLikeTea
Civer
posted June 14, 1999 12:10

Yay!

That is exactly what I've been advocating all this time.. religions are not structures that will give bonii, but it's
how you handle them, and how they handle you.
Bigcivfan
Junior Civer
posted June 14, 1999 20:28

First of all I must stress again that ANY religion in CivIII should be ficticious, maybe a naming function would allow
players to name it "Christianity" or "Islam" (etc.) This would please both players who wanted realistic religions and
players that are offended by another religion (or possibly their's being ill represented). I would like to reply to
NotLikeTea and Cormac. If you do not advocate bonus and penalty modifiers from religions for CivIII, what effect
on the game do you propose they have?
NotLikeTea
Civer
posted June 14, 1999 20:47

First of all, I am an advocate of representing nationalism, which would be religion in the early days, patriotism
later on.

All cities would have opinions of the other civs, including your own. If a city is conquered, it would prefer the old
civ to the new one, and would cause problems. This would be like religions co-existing in one civilization, with
different views, etc.

You could use these views. You can try to create more nationalism, wich would turn your cities against
opponents, and towards you, making wars easier to fight. Holy wars, in the religions context.. idealogical wars
later on.

You could also go in theother direction, and decrease nationalism. Now, the society is more tolerant, and newly
"assimilated" cities are easier to manage. Religions tolerance, for example.

[Stefu]

Here is the summary, eight word pages:

Summary of the thread Religion

The thread Religion was meant to be channel for ideas concerning religion, or whether that feature should even be in. As you will notice, there is one central idea. Please not about some terms I'm using- if use use the term "Some say" or anything like that, that doesn't necessarily mean that this suggestion would be popular, in fact it might be only supported my one person- it's just my way of speaking.

Anyway.

1) RELIGIONS AS INDEPENDENT AI PLAYERS

Central part of this idea is that religions in Civ3 born independently and grow (mostly) independently. They are born as some prophet begins preaching his dogma in one of cities. Goverment can set its status to be persecuted, tolerated, encouraged or fundamentally worshipped: These choices affect the happiness and growth of particular religions. There are, of course, multiple religions, and there can even be multiple religions born in one civ. Religions have political power. Their growth can be encouraged by money.

2) HOLY CITIES & CRUSADES

In this idea, city where religion pops out has got holy shrine, which could increase happiness/ decrease unhappiness.

3) DOUBLE POLITICAL CENTERS?

You would have to build some kind of religious center (Hagia Sophia, St Peters, Kamakura Buddha) in capital or different political center would arise around religion.

4) CRUSADES

If holy city is taken, religion could ask for a crusade to take it back. Religion could also declare crusade whether goverment likes it or not.

5) GOVERMENT TYPE SETS WHICH TOLERATION LEVELS CAN BE USED

For instance, in SMAC terms this means that pacifist (-3 Police) nations wouldn't be able to persecute, while Fundamentalist Goverment nations would have to fundamentally worship one religion. In Civ terms, Democracies and Republics couldn't persecute, while communists couldn't fundamentally worship (alternate: cannot set higher that Tolerated level)

6) NOT DENY, JUST MAKE IT HARDER

Some say that goverment types shouldn't deny religious choices, just make it harder. Communism should have harder rate of religions spreading, democaarcy should have hard time persecuting and so on.

7) ANIMISM / MONOLITHS

In this model all civs start out with Animism, and can build Megaliths to increase chances of more advanced religions to develop. When religion pops out, ruler can either accept or reject it, with risk of schism.

8) TOLERANCE LEVEL OF RELIGIONS

Religions would have Tolerance level, which would set how religion gets along with other religions.

9) CLERICS/MISSIONARIES

Some think that if you fundamentally worship one religion you could spread it by means of Clerics/Missionaries. Maybe for monetary and definitely for political gain. If there would be flock of converts in some city, the population would go to your side more easily and would get unhappy in situation of war (Like in C:CTP)

10)VICTORY CONDITION: UNITE THE WORLD IN SAME FAITH

In this victory you would have to unite entire world to faith you are using.

11) NOT MISSIONARIES, BUT PROPAGANDISTS

In this model instaed of Missionaries there would be Propagandists, spreading their agendas (religion being one) to cities. This model also includes some cities being more eager to, for instance, Fascism than other cities, and being more easily bribed by Fascist nations.

12) TEMPLES DEPENDANT ON WHETHER YOU HAVE A RELIGION

Some think that you should only be able to build religious structures if you have at least one supported religion, and that only followers of that religion would get some good about that.

13) EFFECTS OF TEMPLES DEPEND ON RELIGION

Some have said that effectiveness of temples would vary depending on your religion, for instance Buddhist would have less use of Cathedral(or any kind of other big religious structure) than pagan who wishes to honor his gods.

14) HOW IS RELIGION BORN?

Things that could affect the birth of religion could be war, three nasty events inna row, random event(new prophet) and such.

15) PERSECUTION, THE BIG ATROCITY

Some want that Persecution should be big atrocity, especially in modern times. Also, persecution would have other drawbacks, such as revolts and loss of population. Persecuted religion could also "win" and have whole strategy backfire. There could be some moral and such bonuses for unifying the country religiously and driving out all who have alien beliefs.

16) DEVOTION/GROWTH

Each religion would have Devotion/Growth level, which would decide how does it fare in competition against other religions. in time, highrate devotion religions should replace low/rate devotion ones. If religion has been long around, it should have bigger rate of devotion.

17) RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

There should be bonuses for religious freedom in form of immigration and science. However, diversity would also create friction and possibly happiness penalties.

18) UNHAPPINESS

Unhappy people should be more willing to convert to new religions.

19) NO "BEHIND THE SCENES"

Some say that religion shouldn't work behind the scenes as model 1 proposes. They say that would make really frustrating game.

20) ETHNICS?

There has been asks for Ethnic factor as well as Religious

21) REAL RELIGIONS

Some people hold that real religions should be used. This side has had serious opposition, especially if they propose bonuses and minuses depending on these religions. People ask who would decide the bonuses and minuses?

22) DEAD RELIGIONS

In this model, all religions would be those already dead to avoid legal and other problems.

23) REAL "CLASS" RELIGIONS

Others like that real religions shouldn't be used, but religion classes should be in. (like polytheism, monotheism and animism). There could be several religions that belong to same class. This is maybe the most popular idea, but there are people who hold that this could also offend people, especially with pluses and minuses.

24) SAME CLASS, DIFFERING RELIGION

For instance Russian Paganism would be different from Babylonian Paganism. They would have same benefits, but could still be hostile towards each others.

25) RANDOM, FICTIONAL RELIGIONS

Some like that religions should be entirely fictional. This side usually likes that if there are pluses and minuses, they should be random too. Others ask would this ruin the atmosphere.

26) RELIGION DEFINED BY BY ITS FACTORS

For instance, is it Pacifist/Militant, Proselytizing or not, and does it support your goverment or not? There has been suggestions in this area by all camps in real or not discussion.

27) NO RELIGION

Some won't want Religion at all. Primary reason would be that you cannot do it without offending someone.

28) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING

In this model religions can be customized like Social Engineering in SMAC. You could decide primary structure like Monotheism, Polytheism or Mysticism, important aspects such as afterlife and status of priests and TENETS such as Aescetic, Maltheism or Monastic. In order to inact changes, you need DOGMA, which you could get from priests (city profession) or religious wonders. Dogma then slowly changes your religion. Religion master screen would show the percentages of religions in game, you could also edit religions or set their STATE ACCEPTANCE. Religions also have FERVOR status which shows how highly religion is held, high FERVOR multiplies the effects. DOGMA can be spent to increase FERVOR.

29) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING, MODEL 2

This isn' as complex as other ideas - it sets that Religious models would be chosen from Social Engineering. Suggested models are Animism, Polytheism, Philosophical, Monotheism, Reformed, Fundamentalism, Deism and Atheism. There would be Theocracy Goverment choice instead of Fundamentalist, but it could be only made with religious choices 2,4,and 6. There would be bonuses if civ is both Fundamentalist and Theocracy. And finally, like in SMAC, civs with differing religious choices would be likely to be hostile towards each other. (There has been suggestion that only first four choices are truly needed.)

30) PHILOSOPHY SOCIAL ENGINEERING

This idea sticks to same social engineering idea, but replaces Religion with Philosophy. Philosophical choices would affect diplomatical relations, goverment types available, speed of research, happiness level of citizens, and productivity of citizens. Idea of replacing religion with philosophy would be that it would step around all legal problems while effectively having the effects of religion.

31) EVIL RELIGIONS

Some suggest that there should be evil religions just to cause harm to civilizations, other warn to steer clear of them. One suggested name is Diabolism.

32) BONUSES AND MINUSES

Thee has been discussion about should differing religions have bonuses and minuses. This has been usually with real or not discussions.

33) THE TYPE OF GOD SETS BONUSES/MINUSES

In this idea, the religions pop out in random as in idea 1. They have different bonuses and minuses, depending on what kind of god they worship. If religion is panteistic, it gains small bonuses in several areas, but has increased inefficiency and upkeep costs. If it is monotheistic, it gains bonuses depending on what kind of god their worshipped one is, for instance is he clockmaker, judge or executioner?

34) INDIRECT BONUSES

In this model no rleigion automatically gains bonuses or minuses, but it may be possible to direct people by
way of religion so they, in time, would gain bonuses.

35) NOT RELIGION, JUST ITS EFFECTS

Some think that religion itself should be modeled, just its effects. ie Wouldn't care what religion you worship, but how do you deal with it - do you tolerate it, persecute it or what?

36) RELIGION AS TRANSCENDING FACTOR

For instance, if half of Greeks are in you religion they would be unlikely to like war against you.

37) SLIDING SCALES

Each religion would have three ratings - Evangelism, Conviction and Tolerance. These figures would be hidden from player. Evangelism decides how well does the religion convert the others, Conviction how resistant they are to conversion. Tolerance decides how actively will the religion try to be state religion, low-tolerance ones wish to be from all their heart while high-tolerant don't want to be.

38) RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS IN MODEL 9

Each populated tile would have its religion, and in end of turns each would try to convert others. These convertions use the Civ battle method, with Evangelism representing attack and Conviction defence. These fight should happen on backgroung, player seeing what happened at end of turn. Missionary units would try to convert tlies they are walking on. For every N (N being parameter set at config file) tiles converted to state religion one citizen would become content, and temples and cathedrals would lower N locally. On the other hand, for every N tiles unconverted one citizen becomes unhappy. If Civ doesn't have state religion, then all religions with -1(lowest) tolerance would create unhappiness, while otheres wouldn' have effect. Outlawing a religion would make its followers unhappy, but would lower its evangelism rating inside civs borders. Religions would also affect diplomacy.

39). ATHEISM

Some claim that Atheism should be very good religious choice, with Religion expiring by Birth Control and temples under Atheism replaced by Sex Shops or something. Popular suggestion for effects of atheism would be science bonus but also unhappiness because life lacks structure.

40). RELIGIONS IN SCENARIOS

Some want that in process of scenario building there should be ability to design own religions and place them any way you like, or to disable religions from scenario altogether.

41). APPEARANCE OF RELIGIONS IN REAL YEARS

Christianity would apperar 33 AD, Islam 500 AD and so on. Then you could switch to it

42) CUSTOM DEISM

This is in option where reiligous minority can create its own religion.

43) SAME ADVANTAGES WITH ALL RELIGIONS

Some suggest that if there are different religions, then atl east they should all have same advantages. Ie. J.S Bach's cathedral should make as many people happy as Big Mosq. Of Mecca (or Mixed Public Baths for atheist)

44) BIRTH CONTROL MAKES RELIGIONS OBSOLETE

Well… the main trend of this idea is in big letters above. This would also mean that emptied churches would be sold like old barracks in Civ1/2.

45) MORE VARIETY TO RELIGIOUS WONDERS

ie. They are very western-based. There are only cathedrals, not synagogues or mosques or like.

46) SOME RELIGIONS WORK BETTER IN SOME ENVIROMENTS THAN OTHERS

This is a suggestion of some also.

47) TEMPLES DIFFERING FROM STADIUMS

In this idea Temples and other religious improvements make members of some religion happy (depending on popularity of religion) while stadiums and other non-religious improvements would make fixed numbers of citizens happy.

48) SCIENCE TEACHERS AS ATHEIST MISSIONARIES

Reason for this would be that people scientifically taught would be more suspicious of miracles and existence of god in general. Also different missionaries would have different strengths (animist 1, monotheist 2 and science teacher 4…)

49) NONVIOLENT ACTION

Suggestor of this says that Gandhi was kind of missionary and then ponders about possibilities of incorporating general strikes and such to game. Maybe with kind of supermissionary unit which can start long national strikes?

50) RANDOM ONE TRUE RELIGION

In this suggestion, the One True Religion would be randomly chosen in start of game, and it would be up for player to discover which one it is.

51) CENRALIZATION

Centralization would be another factor determining the religion, ie it could be High (like Catholic church) with one central body controlling the faith, moderate (like in Middle east) or low (like in Lutheran church) which would preach priesthood for all believers. Centralization would say how much religion will "act" for instance how much it would start crusades without your support. (Thread Master Note: Maybe it would decide also how likely schisms would be?)

52) TURYWENZISM

For some odious reason Turywenzism seems to be favored name for one fictional religion. Well, here are the proposed other fictional religions as well.

53) DISLOYALTY

ie. Religion system without religion. For instance, city of Carthage could like Greeks and Romans, be indifferent for Indians and hate the Chinese for historical reasons.

54) SIMPLE AI MODEL

Instead of preset models, religions would act depending civs unhappiness level, technological level, etc…

55) CRUSADES, THE MODEL 2

In this model, church can ask for a crusade, and if you refuse, certain percentage of your population(and army) would disappear and reappear near the infidel nation, to battle them. Also, members of crusading religion in that other nation would have chance of rising up.

56) RELIGIONS CHANGING

If religions have preset attributes, then they could chance. For instance, Protestantism of Reformation was more positive on science than it is now. Also in start Christianity was more pacifist than today, etc.

57) NO MINUSES FOR ANY RELIGION

ie. Real (or class) religions, which would have only bonuses, no minuses for any. Another suggestion to make it less offensive. Bonuses would of course be about equal.

58) NAMING

Religions would be named after civilization they sprung from and also from their class, for instance Chinese Monotheism would be different from Babylonian monotheism. Although similar they could still declare wars against each other.

59) SPREADING

It would happen through road system, trade routes, and if you sponsor one religion, with state-run Missionaries.

60) RELIGIONS DON'T DIE THAT EASILY

For instance, if Arabic Paganism has strong hold in Russia, and Arabs are conquered by Aztecs, religion wouldn't die out. Its head would move to Russian lands like Patriarch of Orthodoxian Church moved from Constantinopole to Russia (Thread Master Note: Actually not correct) and maybe the religion would later start regaining its position in invading lands.

61) TITLES

Like in idea 58, but certain systems would have titles like goverment titles in Civ2. For instance, Arabic Monotheism'd be Islam, while Chinese Philosophical would be Confucianism.

62) DIFFERENT RELIGIONS IN ONE CITY

For instance, in city of 10 there are 60% peoples Christian, 30% Atheist and 10% Muslim. Then city would get 60% Christian bonuses and penalties, 30% Atheist bonuses and penalties and 10% Muslim bonuses and penalties.

63) LEVELS OF COMPLEXITY

In religion terms, if you choose in start of game to have simple religion would have one religion/civ, while complex setting would be micromanagement nightmare.

64) UNDER COMMUNISM

In this model, in Communistic goverments all religion bonuses would become penalties (ie +2 industry becomes -2) While atheism would have extra bonuses.

65) ZONES

In beginning of game you'd have option to start from zone influenced of certain religion, for instance you could choose Muslim influenced zone, Christian influenced zone or Buddhism influnced zone. This would propably mean that Christian religion would spread better in Christian zone than Muslim Zone…

66) RAELISM

Eg. Belief that civilization was created by extraterrestrial beings.

LIST OF POSTERS

Stefu (the thread master)
Willko
Mo
MBD
Crusher
Kmj
VaderTwo
evil conquerer
Ecce Homo
Trachmyr
Eggman
Lancer
Doc Dee
Diodorus Sicilus
NotLikeTea
Yin26
HolyWarrior
Michael Jeszenka
CormacMacArt
Bell
Aharon Ben Rav
Mbrazier
Giant Squid
delcuze2
paraclet
Cartagia the Great
Chowlett
The Octopus
Saganaga Canoer
EnochF
Black Dragon
Kris Huysmans
Galen
Flavor Dave
Francis

[NotLikeTea]

Turywenzism! Turywenzism!

I still don't want religion in the game. But at all costs, Turywenzism musy be at least mentioned in the game, as a bit of an inside joke!

Still angry that NIM never made it into SMAC

[CormacMacArt]

Bigcivfan question: If you do not advocate bonus and penalty modifiers from religions for CivIII, what effect on the game do you propose they have?
Answer: By having an AI player that has as its population members of your own civ, how you interact with it can make your own civ very happy or on the verge of revolution. If your culture has various religions, (each with its own agenda) what attitude your gov takes towards religion as a whole can make or break your civ. You can favor the majority religion and reap the benifits of a very happy civ and an army of subversives in your enemy civs. Or you can persecute that religion that you don't like and risk a holy war against your civ. It seems to me that this would be more challenging then simply picking which religion I like the most.

[FinnishGuy]

IMO, religion should be completely separated from the tech tree. It just doesn't feel right in CIV/CIV II that you do scientific research and then get "monotheism"... There could be some game mechanism that simulates spiritual and moral evolution.

Religions should also develop on their own, outside of player's control. This way the player must adapt and he can not just choose "the best" religion. It would add variability to the game.

I think religions must be modelled in CIV III since they've had such a large impact on human history.

[NotLikeTea]

I agree with the tech comment.

It was even worse when, in the Original Civ, you'd research "Polytheism", then later discover "Religion". What? Polytheism isn't religion?

I must say that the idea of AI religions is growng on me, but I still don't like the idea of either real religions OR made up ones...

[Cartagia the Great]

Alright. I still believe that my ideas for classes would make it so that we don't need fictional religion names as well as make the real names, not confrontational. Perhapse three could be an option to name certian religions if they sprung up. If Arab Monotheism jumped into existence, you could edit the rules to make that call itself Islam and so on. Or Greek Philosophical could suddenly be called Turkyweigizm

Also my apologize on the idea of the Chruch moving from Constantinople to Russia, that WAS false. I had meant to make it sound differant, but I said the wrong thing, oviously to my knoledge Russia DOES see itself as the main Orthodox nation

Any ideas of where a religion DID change it's center to another city due to conquest or something? Perhapse the Papal removle to Avignon. Or, PERHAPSE< the fleeing of the True Cross to COnstantinople after the Arabic take over of Jurusalem, MAYBE. Any other examples?

[yin26]

-=*MOVING THREAD UP*=-

[yin26]

-=*MOVING THREAD UP*=-

[Galen]

Yin, do you just move it up to increase your post count? If so, why? You aren't a Junior Civer trying to make civer!

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Galen (edited June 18, 1999).]</font>

[Galen]

I have an idea, just let the people name them. Or at least change them. That way people won't be offended.
As for Turywenizism, why not make it the Barbarian's religion?
Also, make the names in a txt file so people can customize it if they are offended by a religion having one. Like a Rastafarian wanting his religion in there.

[Theben]

What I have in mind is a bit complex, and I don't have all the details worked out yet. It puts religion under social engineering ala SMAC. For starters you have:

Political(aka SOCIAL in SMAC):One end is Tyranny and at the other is democracy, or anarchy (with things like Monarchy and Republic in between)

Economic:Laisse-faire free market at one end and communal at the other (with regulated market & planned in between)

Also Various VALUES, like:
Centralization: With very decentralized at one end and very centralized at another

And religion, (and maybe some others yet)which would be divided between:
Fundamentalism: % bonus to your religion's social effect bonuses/penalties (i.e. SMAC-style MORALE, SUPPORT, etc., which would vary by religion), additional happiness(too long too explain here), and negative research modifiers.
At the other end, you'd have secularism: penalty to your religion's SE bonuses/penalties, lower happiness, bonus to research. Most of the time you'll be somewhere in-between, with more muted effects of the above. If you are at or near an extreme your populace will attempt to slowly move you towards the center, unless you keep pushing towards an extreme. Of course, going against the will of your people may create even MORE happiness penalties (which may be unworkable as far as the game goes).
* * *
In the suggestions thread on religion the idea of special effects for varying religions hasn't proven very popular, so I'd replace the above fundamentalism with a HAPPINESS bonus only, and RESEARCH penalty, and replace secularism with the opposite (penalty to happiness, + to research).

[NotLikeTea]

That is a good idea, and very similar to one I posted on the Governance thread, I believe.

Categories like religions, economics, etc would be rated from top to bottom, where the top is full control (Communism, Despotism, Fundamentalism, etc) and the bottom is the least control (laissez faire capitalism, anarchy, full seperation of church and state).

I also believe that the player should be able to use religion to make the people more or less tolerant to other civs, but not for strict bonuses. I don't know if people in fundamentalist nations are necessarily more happy than other people. There is no reason why religion and science have to be exclusive... A religion might embrace science as a way of knowing God's plan, or something...

[Spartan187]

I think that the best idea would be to let the religions spring up randomly and then let the player name them.
Cartagia the Great: I'm pretty sure that the Pope moved to Marseilles for a short time before returning to Rome. Either that, or that French split off from the rest of the Roman Catholics for a short time.

[Bigcivfan]

I think that the idea of an AI religion is intriguing if it could be implemented. I had in my mind two different types of religion in the game. One is a more eastern approach, such as islam, where the church and state are intertwined and you, as a civ, run both. The other approach, a more western one, is a secular government, where there is a clear line between church and state. You as the civ run the government while the Church of Turywenzism, which is what your official state religion is, (run by an AI) oversees its flock out of the holy city of Turywen (picked at random, possible bonuses for being center) The AI religion has unique powers. If you dispute with it, Priest Tury can excomunicate you (possible revolt) or even call a crusade against your blashpemous ways!!! But if you get on the good side you can recieve gifts like free churches and such. (There was another idea I liked out of a game called Machiavelli the Prince. Since the church was really just another organ of politics, you could pay to have your faction voted in as head of the church and use it against your enemies!!! Perhaps too radical in the concept of our game.