GRAPHICS (ver1.0): Hosted by Evil Conquerer

[evil conquerer]

Here is a list of all the different ideas mentioned, in no particular order:
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EnochF: The map should have different styles depending on the age it's in. For example, it could be a papyrus scroll during the rennaisance, a map with a compass arrow and fancy European script during the rennaisance, and a viewscreen in the future (JT).
Potential problems/caveats: May make map hard to read.

Ecce Homo: Animate the water tiles.
Problems: May make it hard to customise the map tiles
Suggested fix: Have an animated format for the default that is replacable with a common 2D (.pcx?) format for customization.

Many people: Bring back the throne room!. But make it customizable according to which civilization you have (for example, the Japanese have samurai armor hanging on the wall, the Europeans have knight armor, etc.)
Problems: May make it hard to customize civlizations.
Potential solutions: In the civlization's text file, have an option to say which kind of throne room is used.

JT: Show wonders in the map grid somewhere within the city's radius.
Problems: May make it hard to see what's in that square.
Solutions: Make the wonder show up under units and special resources(?), make wonder invisible with terrain viewing key (T in SMAC and Civ II).

Many people: Either make the units 2D (unacceptable in a modern game, IMNSHO) or have an alternative 2D format to customize the units with. In SMAC, for example, a historical MOD pack is impossible because there is no way to modify the unit pix ("those chariots look pretty silly with particle impactors" ).
Suggested fix: Provide an alternate 2D graphics file (.pcx?) to provide for the customization of units.

Many people: City architecture should be cilivization-specific.
Implementation: Provide a setting in the civilization's text file to determine the architecture style. This could be the same setting that determines the throne room and unit(?) styles.

Many people: The graphics should not slow down the game too much or require ultra-fast machines in order to run acceptably. For example, the animation for founding a new city in Civ's I and II (something unfortunately missing in SMAC) would just be a pain if there wasn't a way to skip it. The high-res graphics in SMAC ran unacceptably slow on my machine (PII-300 w/ 64 MB, in case you're wondering), but the low-res units looked just fine and ran much better.
Solution: Make the graphics as good as you can without slowing down the game.

evil conquerer: If the units are modular (as in SMAC), the different sections of the unit should be clearly visible. I didn't have this problem, but some people complained that the different weapons and special abilites were hard to tell apart.
Possible solution: Weapons and special abilities may have to be exaggerated slightly on the map screen.

EnochF: If terraforming can be done from inside the city, there should be an icon that indicates work in progress on that square.
Potential problem: Might obscure the resources in that square.

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If I missed anybody's please tell me and I'll gladly put it in. If you disagree with any of the suggested fixes or anything on the list, please feel free to post here with your suggestion.

Credits:
JT
Ecce Homo
Pythagoras
Fugi the Great
meowser
Mo
evil conquerer
Shining1
Trachmyr
EnochF

[This message has been edited by evil conquerer (edited May 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by evil conquerer (edited May 22, 1999).]

[JT]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on there, evil. I meant a viewscreen for post-modern ages, like the diamond age from CTP. The latitude-longitude and Times New Roman was good for this era. Then, when you get to any eras past this one, it changes into a viewscreen, kinda like in Star Wars where they have those 3-d maps that come up on screen. Of course, this would be 2-d, but you get the basic idea. The latitude-longitude was better for this era.

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-Civ3 Thread Master of OTHER and UNITS.
"We get the paperwork, you get the game!"

[Fugi the Great]

Any way you could make the map of what we know of (another nation gave us a map) slightly inaccurate until we have actually been there? I'm thinking of some of those really old maps of what people thought the earth looked like in ancient times.

3D graphics only in the way of how should I say - levels, and a real spherical planet. Sea level (ground units and ships), lower atmosphere(planes and missles), upper atmosphere (spy planes), near earth orbit (satellites), shallow water (subs near coast-seen by most ships), deep water (subs not seen unless ship has sonar or other subs). Missles and planes can then fly over ground units, troop transports can travel over the top of enemy subs without knowing it, ground units can pass under planes, satellites above everything watching whats going on.

Units in 3D will only slow down their movements. As much as I would like to upgrade the game for the millenium to totally 3D, the detail that you might loose because you went to 3D for units is minor, though facing of units if we stayed with 2D would be a definite must, (tanks actually pointed toward the unit you are shooting at).

[JT]

Yes, but then it won't get the 100% from Gamespot that it deserves. We need pretty good graphics.

I think the maps should be accurate when you trade. I mean, they explored it, so why would it make a difference if we explored it?

Also, if they put innaccuricies in the map to make it realistic, it would seriously mess up the game. Imagine, you send an invasion force to go conquer the civilization hogging half of your continent, only to realize that there's a channel between you. Not fun.

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-Civ3 Thread Master of OTHER and UNITS.
"We get the paperwork, you get the game!"

[EnochF]

JT: I was thinking in the Genetic Age you'd look down on the planet from satellites or the Global Positioning System or something.

Then the Diamond Age could be a sort of virtual real-time world simulation with intense colors and stuff...

But since there's no real consensus about what (if any) future ages there will be, I didn't go into it.

[Fugi the Great]

Even if it would be worthy of a 100% in any magazine, (or more if that's possible), if we went totally 3D, it wouldn't get it anyway do to the high hardware requirements it would need. I know most of my the ideas I have are going by very memory hungry as it is. Waiting minutes between turns instead of seconds while everything renders and rerenders moving 3D units on a 3D planet with 3D features is going to take forever. Why can't we just have units that just look left, right, up, down, and 45/60 degree increment angles, and have the APPEARANCE of 3D without actually being 3D. Why do we have to see the angles in between? What does that really do for the average player? Did we really get any extra enjoyment out of watching Needlejets hug the terrain (which was kinda cool at first), or were others like me moderatly annoyed after awhile when it took so blasted long to get to where it was supposed to go?
Now that I have over stayed my welcome, have a nice weekend.

[Trachmyr]

I want to suggest using a Style of Graphics similar to LORDS of THE REALM II

[Icedan]

My Dad also plays Civ, and he doesn't care about how good the graphics are.
But guess what Fugi? Graphics actually effect how you play the game.

And don't any of you think that the game is going to come out in the next month or so, Oh nooo..It will certainly be out next year! far into the next year, Do any of you know how fast the computers will be then?
KTX said they will have a computer running at 1 gigahertz by the end of this year, thats the speed of two PIII's. So if you think that the games going to be slow by putting animations in, movies, better graphical interface, etc. I believe you are very wrong!

Ive put a site up of some quick sketches I did to give you all an idea how the game should look in my opinion, for better interactivity (leadership) more people turning heads and sayin "wow"
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/3402/Civ.htm

(The page takes a while to load, big pics)

And I know Fugi, that you don't think you are everyone, but I am quite sure Firaxis are aiming at people with interests in most/all area's of Civ gaming. Not just one.

This is really all I am going to say, I just don't believe we should stick to the old diagonal interface, clumped up with terrain which is hardly interactive at all.


Also, in the site, some of the images may not load because the page is big, so just right click on the images that didnt load and reload that image, or show image.

Lata.

[Icedan]

Oh..and Personally I liked the Castle rather than the Throne room.

I could then see from the outside the city growing around me as my civ grows and my castle becoming more advanced looking through the ages. and so on.

I felt more open to where I "lived" hehe when I built the house I live in.

Perhaps we could also update the throne room aswell?

[Rusty Nail]

I want to put in a strong recommendation for crisp, easily distinguishable, and pleasantly colored terrain graphics. It IS important. Civ2 did this well. Smac was a step backwards. CTP did better, but goofed by making hills, swamps, and grasslands look too much alike, and almost impossible to distinguish under the fog of war. And please, make fog of war an OPTION, and not hard-wired ( It has no game play effect). The fog is hell for people with poor eyesight.

Similarly for units. Clarity is more important than cutomability IMHO.

[Fugi the Great]

I realize I'm not the only one that has an opinion. "Graphics actually effect how you play the game" - somewhat true, more graphics means slower game play, I can't play nearly as many turns of SMAC or CTP at a sitting as I could with CIV 1 or 2. The slowest part of both new games is the moving of units. Yes I am going to very soon upgrade my P200 to a fast P2 or P3 with a fast video card, but not everyone is - so I guess I am speaking for them. Maybe I just don't care about the graphics so much because I grew up with the C64's, so I'm used to the primitive graphics. I don't want to have to buy another new computer again or have to upgrade my next one any time soon after I buy it just to enjoy the next incarnation in the Civ series. We already jumped from needing a 486 to a P166 minimum to run these new games, what are we going to assume the average user is going to have when the Civ III comes out?

[evil conquerer]

Icedan: You say those graphics were in a hurry? I'd give anything to see the ones you take your time on . While that system looks really good, it has completely no sense of perspective or distance. It's impossible to measure how far units can move if there are no tiles anywhere. In addition, in a map like that it would be impossible to draw tiles. Still, that system would be cool for the city view. Which reminds me: Bring back the city view in Civilization III!. It was oddly lacking in SMAC. While completely useless, it is still good because it gives the user a sense of satisfaction. When I have a city with 15 wonders and all the structures, I like to be able to see close-up my great creation.

JT: You're right. I don't know why I listed the viewscreen as "modern times". Modern times could be a modern military map or a traditional atlas map. I'll fix that shortly.

[Ecce Homo]

Icedan - I enjoyed your graphical work. It reminds me of the Destiny maps.

In Destiny you can choose between a 3D landscape (like Icedan's drawings but uglier), a flat map (like Civ 1) and a rotating globe. These systems are good, but badly implemented. If you get a 3D, you should be able to make the square grid visible.

[Icedan]

I understand what you mean Evil, I also took that into account. But if you have a look at the new populus or even the old game Magic Carpet, you'll see the map can rotate around in any direction, so maybe it could work like that?

I don't know what else is capable. Besides, you HAVE to move the map in order to see past the screens vision. So I don't think its hardly a problem.

[Icedan]

And I just want to say, that the drawing I made isnt exactly how I imagine it to be. I just wanted to give a fair idea what I think it should look like.

Age of Empires was made up of tiles aswell, if we could use that system, just make it look less like a tile, but enough to know its a tile, also making it look less like steps, and more like a hill and mountians.

right? hehe

And ahh...I was going to say something else..ah yeah..I enjoyed drawing those, I really started to rush the job near the end. But I am thinking about making it look good, and done properly. Just for fun.