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  • Sticking It Out

    Everyone, even the best players, suffer setbacks during their civ game. The best of the best will generally stick it out and turn the upset into gain. Mere mortals such as myself will generally bail out of any game where we don't achieve what some around here call "UP": Ultimate Power.

    The question of this thread is, how severe a setback do you have to suffer in order to quit? How do you know how severe a setback is? What is the best way to turn losing a city into an advantage?

    I wanted to bring in some screenshots, but for some reason, I can't seem to capture them, so I'll describe my initial example instead (please, offer any examples you can think of). Playing as the Russians on a huge world with 16 civs, I started in fertile land on a continent with all the European powers. Thankfully, most were far away from me, except the Germans, who I out-REXed utterly. My civ came along nicely, dominating in culture if a bit out-classed militarily. I build two cities, Astrakhan and Tblisi, on the "other side" of Germany, which was to the West of my "homeland". These came along nicely too, until the Germans sent a HUGE group of veteran archers straight towards Astrakhan.

    They razed the city, and for a second, I thought about quitting. After all, I had NO offensive units, aside from one archer. But I had put too much into the game. So I began cranking out horsemen (all regulars) and built a wall in Tblisi. I urged MAs against the Germans, and surprisingly, they took the bait. Their archers could easily have taken Tbilsi and several of my "core" cities, but the AI couldn't get their act together, and through prolonged assaults by regular horsemen and, eventually, veteran knights, I wiped Germany out.

    Had I succumbed to my initial despair, it would have been back to the drawing board. But I stuck it out, and now I'm on top of the world.

    So, my first question to all of you experts is: how do you know your behind is grass? And how do you know you can make a comeback?

    I know the question is a little vague, but hopefully this will stoke some interesting conversation.
    36
    NOTHING! Not until foreign armies march through my capital!
    16.67%
    6
    Well, if I lose one or more of my core cities...
    8.33%
    3
    If some screwhead beats me to key wonders that I want...
    5.56%
    2
    Only if I'm hopelessly outclassed in every way.
    47.22%
    17
    If my girlfriend threatens to dump me...
    22.22%
    8
    You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

  • #2
    Well I may be the anti-expert at Civ3, but I felt compelled to post.

    I have just been attempting (for about the 5th time) to play as the Ottomans long enough to see the Sipahi in action. This game was going well, and me with Iron, Horses and 3 lux where several nearby civs had none of either resource.

    Then out of bloody nowhere the Persians are at wat with me. I have some early successes with Warriors and Swords in the jungles between our cities, then build up a force of Swords to take it to them. Upon reaching their cities they swarm me with zillions of Archers (they had no Iron!) that halts my advance. Never mind, almost all my cities are cranking military out. But then I try to change to Monarchy, expecting a 3 or so turn delay (used to Regent). I am stuck with about 8 turns of no production, in which time my army arrives at Sidon and enters the killing fields. Archers galore and Horses take out three or four swords on hills, and THEN they get Iron and send in the Immortals.

    Long time friends who I have donated much tribute to declare war and things are looking to be far too annoying to continue.

    I have just managed to change to Monarchy, have started building Medieval Infantry and am about 10 turns away from Chivalry (I have tech superiority, just), and my army is completely gone. I got fully fed up then and just plain quit. I have the autosave, but it will take some steely resolve for me to face that again.

    Mistakes I can handle, it's just when the whole frigging game goes against you. All it takes is several hundred years of disastrous luck and my tolerance is gone.

    Or maybe it's 'cos it's almost 3am here and I should be at work around 9 tomorrow.

    I will vote for the option where someone gets an absolute must wonder ahead of me, but more often I give up 'cos a war I didn't instigate results in me losing my whole attacking force and where I end up at war with those who were my friends in the war to beign with.
    Consul.

    Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

    Comment


    • #3
      The only time I quit is when victory is already assured, I rarely care to actually finish the final turns of wiping out already defeated civs. Otherwise, I face up to the disgraced notice from the game.

      Last night, as Rome isolated on an island Emperor, AU mod, PTW 1.14. No lux, no Iron, no GUNPOWDER, and no civ within safe galley distance lead to me losing a few cities to the accursed Vikings, which were quickly retaken (thankfully Berserks do not defend well) and suiciding many, many Longbows against the fortified Musketeers of the Iriquios to my north. However, I now boast Iron, Horses, Gunpowder and Coal. Just pulled even in tech and have activated my GA. Time to see about securing myself some Lux's...take out the easy technologically backwards Celts to the west for a route up through the Ottomans and Carthage with only carthage offering true resistance, or revenge on the Vikings to the east for a foothold on what is the major landmass with 6 civs... I am still near the bottom in terms of the power graph and the score.
      Last edited by UnOrthOdOx; April 15, 2003, 10:59.
      One who has a surplus of the unorthodox shall attain surpassing victories. - Sun Pin
      You're wierd. - Krill

      An UnOrthOdOx Hobby

      Comment


      • #4
        It's funny you should mention the Ottomans vs. the Persians, because I remember one notable instance - my first regent game - where I REXed very well, but was completely enmeshed with the Persian empire. The Persians attacked and triggered their golden age, destroying one small town and taking another. They had 1 source of iron, on a well-defended town on a hillside, surrounded by mountains!

        But I was determined not to lose, so I send med. inf. after med. inf. to Susa, and - lo and behold! - took it!

        The rest of the war was a real meatgrinder, and memorable to me because it was the first game where I used med. inf.s and then knights well.

        But on Monarch level, I might have lost the whole thing. It was close.

        Yeah, when I lose a massive attack force, it can be enough for me to toss in the towel too. More often, due to my personal style, I'll be in the lead tech wise and have many wonders, but will suddenly see a bunch of archers or swordsmen heading my way, and within a few turns the whole world'll be at my throat. That can be aggravating...
        You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

        Comment


        • #5
          I voted for 'when I'm outclassed in every aspect', but actually this never happens playing 'emperor'.

          Deity is another case, but then again, I don't like deity games at all.

          Another good reason to stop is when YOU yourself are outclassing all other civs (was this an option, have to look back) and challenges are diminished to zero. No reason to continue to play than IMO.

          I'd vote for the'if my girlfriend leaves me' option too, but then again, she already has


          AJ
          " Deal with me fairly and I'll allow you to breathe on ... for a while. Deal with me unfairly and your deeds shall be remembered and punished. Your last human remains will feed the vultures who circle in large numbers above the ruins of your once proud cities. "
          - emperor level all time
          - I'm back !!! (too...)

          Comment


          • #6
            GIRLFRIEND!!! When she starts to complain, it is not good....besides that...I´m too proud to surrender

            But where´s the banana option?
            And ever after, sun shone upon the land of Sunshinia...

            Comment


            • #7
              Quitting in Disgust

              I would vote for this option. The first game I played of PTW (only a few games ago) I chose the Ottomans because of the Sipahi. I was doing very well before I got them, expanding, gathering luxuries, ahead in tech, etc., and did an almost perfectly-planned upgrade of many horsemen as soon as I got MT. Just then, the Celts attacked and took one of my small almost worthless outskirt cities, and I retaliated with 15-20 Sipahi, which I used to surround two of their cities. I started pounding and found that I could not defeat cities defended by 2-3 spearmen. This went on for about 10 turns with me hardly winning any of the combats, and spearmen defeating one Sepahi after another, turn after turn. Finally, a handful of their archers zipped in on roads and dispatched my few remaining Sepahi (4 or 5). Of course maybe I should have retreated and tried something else, but I couldnt believe it! The statistics are unfathomable.

              I quit in disgust, dropped back to Regent, and changed Civs.

              GarP

              Comment


              • #8
                HA! That would make me quit in disgust too, but that sort of thing happens all the time to me!

                I also almost NEVER generate leaders with my elites. And who here has not lost an elite cavalry to a weakened regular spearman in a city?

                I should have added "pure bad luck" as an answer to the poll, that's for sure.
                You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                Comment


                • #9
                  One more choice in the poll should have been "Any of the Above, If It Stops Being Fun".

                  Far from an expert myself, but there are a few factors that will make me give in if I stop having fun (although I can never quite make myself "Retire" and have save games I will never go back to, but can't make myself delete). But the biggest is watching my empire get wiped. I just can't bear to watch hours/days of play go down in smoky ruin.

                  The last game I quit, two days ago, I was Japan on basically a single (large map) continent with 8 other Civs. It was one of those games where a handful of AI civs decide to eat the other ones alive out of the starting gate. The game was from beginning, to when I decided to quit, war. Early on I played an opportunist game, and allied with the dominant attacking civs. Using Samurai, I parked stacks next to cities, and when the AI weakened them enough, I went in for the kill. Didn't get every city I wanted this way, the AI took a few, but I ended up with considerably more, at considerably less unit cost, than I would have going it alone. And their attitude indicated they were happy to have me in the coalition.

                  After the dust clears, and hundreds of years go by, the remaining civs, the Mongols, Carthage, and Greece were Polite, and MPP partner China Gracious, an attitude I rarely see. At this point, militarily, culturally, but not quite technologically, I am the dominant nation.

                  Then the worm turns ... my former allies attitude towards me all sour over a short period ... to the point where they won't even take bribes. Then Mongolia and China attack me out of the blue. Well, not so much out of the blue, because when they won't accept a bribe, its always trouble soon. The attack I don't mind so much. It's the price you pay for being the dominant power in the game. My cities were adequately, but not overly, well defended. And separately from the defensive units garrisoned in my cities, I kept a large attack force of Calvary in the middle of my nation to quickly meet any potential trouble head on. And once war started, Greece joined me in the fray, but was too weak to keep the dogs of war off me to any great degree.

                  Then I had one of those series of turns where my superior units were falling like flies to inferior ones. Soon my entire attack force was gone. And my cities under siege. Many of which, because I played this (questionable) opportunist game, were isolated inside other empires. That is when, I had enough
                  "Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription is ... more cow bell!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    IMHO, one of the biggest stumbling blocks to moving up in difficulty levels is entirely mental -- it is quite easy to believe your position to be hopeless and the game to be lost. But if you play these games out (sometimes doing all you can to maintain that "never say die" attitude), you may very well soon come to the realization that the situation wasn't hopeless - not by a longshot - it was only your inexperience with the in-game effects of the challeneges of the difficulty level. Trying to play out lost positions can be a very valuable learning experience.

                    All that said, I agree with TheArsenal that the right time is "when it stops being fun."

                    Catt

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!!

                      I'm sure we all have stories like that we could tell. I remember one game the superpower I made Babylon out to be... I just kept signing MAs against them, and invariably my allies were swallowed whole by Babylon! As Rome, my ending power was unquestionable, but so was Babylon's! If it hadn't been for these two chokepoints, I'm sure a bloody, pointless war would have ensued...

                      Maybe we should just retitle this thread "Stories of Despair".
                      You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, a situation where I'm done is something like what happened just a few moments ago. Small island, I'm the Iroquois, starting next to the Romans. I have four cities, the Romans have four cities. The Romans have 2 iron next to their two largest cities. I have no Iron. No Horses except far to the south, desperately trying to get them connected. A few more years pass, and WHAM. Roman sneak attack on my borders as a wave of 10 or so Legionaries and a few support archers comes sweeping in. One city down... two cities down... my counter-attacks don't even phaze them. 7 squares out from my capital, and no reinforcements for me coming any time soon. Quitting time, as I see it.
                        I make movies. Come check 'em out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I never seem to quit, almost. If I'm winning, I take it to the actual victory. If losing... well, I almost always wait till the AI takes all my cities... also a pleasure to see the AI beat me.

                          Well, a time when I quite prematurely was a Regent game, when I just started that, where I had a terrible start with the French, and it was late Middle ages for me - just discovered the Military Tradition. Everyone else, though, was in inudstrial, and I had no Saltpeter anyway. Damn Greeks declare war, march in with a ton of Riflemen and some Cavalry... not looking good! I hold on somehow, hoping to get to Riflemen soon myself, but then I see that Greeks have signed an alliance with the Aztecs... and those guys bring Infantry in! Time to quit...
                          Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                          Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                          I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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                          • #14
                            Seems as though we've all had our time.

                            The Vikings, with their "awesome" berserkir unit, brought me a fair number of quits after I REXed too hard and either the Celts or the Russians or even the English brought stacks of veteran archers... that's the hardest for me.

                            In my first horsemen-only war ever, I took all of France, and then Russia, only to lose Sistine's and Leo's both 1 TURN EACH to the Indians.



                            That is what makes me quit. Sure, sure, I could have poured ALL my efforts into taking down India, with its two sources of iron and its 30 cities. But then I'd fall behind in the tech race, and I'd still have the Celties nearby...
                            You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I can see quitting of frustration for a period of time... but in an hour or two, I'll go and launch the game again .
                              Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                              Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                              I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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