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Overcoming Parity in the Medival Age

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  • #16
    Sir, I resent the accusation that I am not a raging warmonger.

    I would also like to add that my general progression in the game is:

    1. REX

    2. Build and switch to Monarchy

    3. Enter medival era with either the HG or the GL or both.

    4. Go to war using mounted units, or medival infantry if I'm in a pinch.

    5. Conquer (most) of my continent (I do play a huge map, after all, with 15/16 other civs). Around 2-3 medium-large civs subjugated generally.

    6. Build Sun Tzu's, Sistine, JS Bachs, Leo's. I can generally do this while at war.

    7. Switch to Democracy before researching even Gunpowder sometimes; definitely before Chemistry etc. Build build build build.

    8. Get all the other wonders I can from that era. My "possessions" should be entering the level of standard cities by now.

    9. Enter industrial era and get steampower

    Then, if I need it:

    10. Go get MT and war again

    By this point, normally, I'm powerful enough that no one will attack me in earnest and I can wait to take them on on my terms.

    Normally this progression serves me well, with variations, for always every civ. If I'm playing as the Aztecs, Celts, Iroquois, I'll blow my GA just to conquer conquer conquer. But I'll generally wait for Knights and their (better) UU equivalents, to do my conquest.

    But all this is damn hard when play as an early-game disadvantaged civ, such as the Romans, and I imagine the Spanish and Koreans as well.

    As as mentioned before, the 3 units in each city I build when I have spare time, and to police them (up to 3 under Monarchy; 2 despotism and 4 communism, which i almost never use)
    You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

    Comment


    • #17
      Ah. 3 under Monarchy. *shakes head* Ok, didn't know that.

      So you build first, then fight, then build, then maybe fight more. Fairly standard progression. And as you point out, it tends to work.

      Here's mine:

      1) REX

      2) Massive military prebuild phase and then upgrading. Goal is approx 10 swords, 15-20 horse.

      3) Kill. The hope is that during this phase I will generate a leader or two (or five, or ten... GIMME! MINE! MINE!) for the FP and various wonders. This phase lasts until either my neighbors get feudalism + they have iron, or they are wiped out. In the first case, we go back to stage 3 once we have chivalry.

      4) Build like crazy.

      5) Pick off weak civs for their luxuries.

      6) Win (either domination or SS).

      Doesn't always work... not by a longshot! But that's ok, I accept a high failure rate given what I'm shooting for!

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #18
        I dunnno why ppl hate Communism so much. It's actually a decent government for long wars with multiple continents. Democracy would surely fail in this case, due to massive anti-war sentiment.

        Sure your big cities would not produce as much as before, but consider also you can pop rush and less corruption on the other continent which is way far from your capital.

        Somebody in the threads also pointed out you can draft more in Communism. These units can make good cannon fodders and defensive unit.

        Especially with Religious trait, Communism is godsent. Communism for long overdrawn war, then switch back to Democracy to take the lead again. With communism you can scale back entertainment to 0 if you have enough luxuries/happiness modifiers, and not ever worry about war wearriness. I'm not saying that I would use Communism solely from the time that I discover it. Just for specific occassions.

        Comment


        • #19
          I do like it when presented with the opportunity to:

          1. Pick off a city with a wandering veteran archer early early early in the game.

          2. Get attacked by a weak civ while I'm weak, crank out swordsmen, and take them down, usually with something like the Pyramids, Colossus, etc.

          But I generally save the conquest(s) for the medival era.

          What size world do you play on? # of civs? (I forget, honestly, not trying to be a jerk)
          You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

          Comment


          • #20
            For taking that unhappy size 12 city and slaughtering your citizens so that it's a size 4 city with a cathedral, communism is golden. Definitely worth it... if you're religious.

            But what do you use in the middle ages? when at parity?
            You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

            Comment


            • #21
              Standard Maps, 8 civs. Clealry different from Huge/16. When I think about taking down my continent, I'm talking about conquering 2-4 other civs. On your settings, how many neighbors do you typically have?

              The single biggest difference that I see on huge maps versus standard maps has to do with luxuries. On standard maps with 8 civs, there is 1 luxury per civ. Take out a couple of civs, and you have a bunch of luxuries. On a huge map/16 civs, there is 1/2 a luxury per civ. A continent of 4 civs would probably have 2 luxuries. OUCH!

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
                5. Conquer (most) of my continent (I do play a huge map, after all, with 15/16 other civs). Around 2-3 medium-large civs subjugated generally.

                6. Build Sun Tzu's, Sistine, JS Bachs, Leo's. I can generally do this while at war.
                If you can do those two things, the game is won - no parity questions at all. If you can do one or the other of those two things, the game should be won (it could still be botched, I think).

                I would think that the Romans are an early game advantaged (as opposed to disadvantaged) civ in the hands of a human player -- legions are nasty little guys when used well.

                Catt

                Comment


                • #23
                  Catt speaks the truth. 5 + 6 = a sure win. It might not be "coast to an easy SS launch" win, but I can't see a civ that big and wonderous actually getting beaten.

                  -Arrian
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ah, but Catt, what happens when you arrive at the medival era at parity and don't have any sort of edge whatsoever?

                    The Romans, with their useful for a smaller map legionaries, will leave you there on a huge map...

                    But that is a topic for another thread, that we would all gladly have you join. Please visit "Winning as Rome on a Huge Map", also in the Strategy section. I would appreciate it, as I started it.

                    I was wandering off-topic earlier when I posted my general game strategy. A better question, for all y'all, is: what do I do when my civ is not hopeless, but tied with everyone, and lacks a good offensive unit? (I hope this whole thread isn't too broad to be interesting)

                    Arrian, to reply:

                    If I'm starting on lousy land, I'll generally have 3-5 neighbors on a large continent. If I'm starting on rich land, with nearby several luxuries, I'll tend to be on a HUGE continent with as many as 10 neighbors (my current game is me plus 9 others). If my land is very rich, too, most of these neighbors will be quite nearby.
                    You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Nine neighbors. Yeesh.

                      I'd probably try to take out 2-3 in the ancient age (reduce to a city or two, take their tech, move on) and build for a bit, then hit a couple more with knights.

                      But I'm not sure how fast tech flies in that situation. With 9 civs, plus you, it could be really fast (which I don't really like much). Even adjusting for the huge map tech cost.

                      -Arrian
                      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yeah. In my current game, with which you are pretty well aquainted, and everyone else can find the details in the "Winning as Rome on a Huge World" thread, the techs "get around" in 1-2. I was hard pressed just to keep up. Had 4 neighbors working on Sistine when I was, plus 4 more working on Sun Tzu's. Thankfully, I got both, but oy vey!

                        Tech goes QUICK on these games. Playing as the right civ, it's not hard to keep up. Particularly industrious, religious and scientific civs.

                        But as someone just catching up in this situation, arriving at the medival era, how to win? How to gain an edge?
                        You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Opportunistic fighting, I'd say. Build a respectable strike force (not designed to take out your continent, or even 1 civ, necessarily) and wait for war to break out. Pick a side, jump in, and gain what you can (luxuries, man, luxuries!).

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
                            Ah, but Catt, what happens when you arrive at the medival era at parity and don't have any sort of edge whatsoever?
                            But you always have an edge because the AI is predictable and not flexible. (more below)

                            The Romans, with their useful for a smaller map legionaries, will leave you there on a huge map...
                            I don't disagree that slow-moving units do better in tight confines, but for me, wider spaces just means more workers to build an efficient road network quickly. I tend to play random civs, and haven't played a ton of games with Rome -- but when I have, I've used legions right up until riflemen start appearing. Even againt muskets in cities, stacks of 6 - 8 legions, with the occasional knight or two, can really cut through an AI empire. The AI (so great in so many ways) is woefully outclassed in warfare tactics, and even an outnumbered and technologically inferior human force can usually give more than it takes in the hands of a moderately experienced player.

                            But that is a topic for another thread, that we would all gladly have you join. Please visit "Winning as Rome on a Huge Map", also in the Strategy section. I would appreciate it, as I started it.
                            I've been reading and enjoying it! But I don't really have anything to contribute -- for one thing, I've never played Rome on a huge map and haven't played a huge map in a long time (but have played with slowmovers where the distance between capitols makes the standard map feel huge -- i.e., lots of roads needed for an offensive); for a second thing, I think Arrian and vmxa1 are providing all the advice you need. I'll add only one bit (and do it here rather than there) -- don't count games as lost or likely lost in the ancient or middle ages - from the descriptions of your games, and the comments back from vmxa1's downloads, it sounds like most of the time you're in a position to win easily but you don't see it that way because you haven't acheived a clear leadership position in all facets just yet. With more experience playing games out, I suspect you'll come to see, at some fairly innocuous point in your games, that the game is almost assuredly "won" even though you're behind in tech, behind in empire size, behind in military strength, etc.

                            I was wandering off-topic earlier when I posted my general game strategy. A better question, for all y'all, is: what do I do when my civ is not hopeless, but tied with everyone, and lacks a good offensive unit? (I hope this whole thread isn't too broad to be interesting)
                            It's a little broad . I tend to play Emperor, standard maps, random civs and conditions. Sixteen civs is harder than eight civs, no doubt. But on a standard map, if I find myself more or less on parity with the leading AI civs in the early middle ages, then the game is almost certainly won. The ability to control the tempo through selective warfare, alliance diplomacy, and tech trading means, barring something really unusual, I should win. AI's will almost always engage in some wars, and AIs manage wars badly -- not only do they lose far more units than a human player would, they tend to drop all pretense to doing anything but make war -- all builds go to units, etc. A good AI war, with the right diplomacy, can set back the entire AI world, while you plod along at your own tempo, in your own direction.

                            Again, I think that the human ability to control the game tempo means parity = victory. This wasn't always the case for me, but since I've gotten used to being in that position, it has morphed from "fretting about the future" to "planning how to win." Which is why I say that if I have maintenance-free barracks in every city, half-cost unit upgrades, and no happiness issues whatsoever (the wonder list in point 6), then I can be one of the smaller civs in the game and I'll still be pretty confident about victory.

                            As posted in other threads, I've been experimenting with more peaceful approaches to the game recently, and it's pretty fun to play the middleman - whether economically or diplomatically. It is not the most efficient way to play and win, but it offers some interesting lessons and interesting games. The lesson most relevant to this thread (I think) is that parity at the middle ages offers you much better than average chances to win, provided you've been in a parity situation often enough to not fret unduly about your situation.

                            Catt

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                            • #29
                              Thank you for the lengthy and daoist reply, Catt (yes, that is a compliment). To respond to your several points:

                              Yes, the AI is predictable, but I haven't learned their exact repetition yet. I have noticed a few things; Monarchy almost ALWAYS comes last, which can help. Any other pointers/hints? (though maybe this is a subject for another thread)

                              Yes, the AI does launch idiotic and poorly-waged wars often. But occassionally, some power will come along and utterly conquer the other, leaving you with a genuine superpower to deal with. I'm not talking about the Europeans offing each other. It's generally something like the Carthaginians taking ALL of Egypt, Babylon or wherever, or the Zulus doing the same to some country. This is quite problematic, as I am fond of the classic maxim "divide and rule". It's certainly an improvement in PTW from standard Civ3, IMO.

                              I do get impatient and give up games with a lot of potential, often. I probably wouldn't if I was playing as an industrious civ. But those Romans. Bah! I especially hate dealing with a tech deficit, and slow growth. Because Huge games are SO SLOW, waiting to conquer the good wonders isn't as appealing, sometimes, as just starting over.
                              You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Arrian
                                Opportunistic fighting, I'd say. Build a respectable strike force (not designed to take out your continent, or even 1 civ, necessarily) and wait for war to break out. Pick a side, jump in, and gain what you can (luxuries, man, luxuries!).

                                -Arrian
                                I can see this; wreaking havok to gain an edge. Like real-life colonialism. The problem is what comes AFTERWARDS... breakdown. How to prevent this, as well as ambitious AIs taking down your new colonies?
                                You can't fight in here! This is the WAR room!

                                Comment

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