Help on Monarch - FP + Victim selection

[ducki]

OK, here's my plan.

Wait 3 turns for my Incense deal with Mongolia to expire.
The Town just west of Chinan has Mongolia's source of Saltpeter.
I'm 4 turns from Chemistry, so I can get Cannon pretty soon.

Continue with my current improvement builds in both Cores. Then, switch to Muskets, Riders, and Catapults.
Move all available forces to bear on the town West of Chinan, removing Gunpowder from Mongolia.
Take the Town just North of that.
Possibly take the City West of Kagoshima, depending on strength.

Make peace ASAP after taking at least those two northern towns.
By now, I should have at LEAST cannon, maybe Cavalry.
Declare war on Japan, upgrade to Cannon and Cavalry, bribe Temujin to join in, and kick some butt.
If possible, I may try to use Peace Negotiations to get Tem to join in.

Either way, once I take the Saltpeter, Mongolia should be an easy foe, but I'll still need him to draw some fire from Japan.

If things go well, I may not play this game to the end. I find I don't really like China - go figure, since I'm such a rabid fan of Industrious - I just really seem to prefer Japan for Militaristic, or Celts.

Anyway, If anyone sees a problem with that battle plan, let me know. More later, I hope.

[BRC]

How many catapults do you have to upgrade?? Bringing them along for your strike on the Mongols will slow down your attack, and you might not need them, especially with your limited goals.
It would also allow you the time to set them up on the Japanese border. That way you won't have to wait a few turns to shift the cannons around.

If things go well, I may not play this game to the end. I find I don't really like China - go figure, since I'm such a rabid fan of Industrious - I just really seem to prefer Japan for Militaristic, or Celts.

I'm yet to play the Celts, mostly because I believe that I'd prefer the Samurai to the Gallic. What do you think??

Also, if you are not enjoying the game, don't worry about finishing it. Everyone has their style. I kind of like China and I make sure that I have dozens of Horseman on hand to upgrade to Riders. I don't think that I would enjoy China as much if I didn't tie this in to my strategy. What makes you prefer Japan to China??

[ducki]

Originally posted by BRC
How many catapults do you have to upgrade?? Bringing them along for your strike on the Mongols will slow down your attack, and you might not need them, especially with your limited goals.
It would also allow you the time to set them up on the Japanese border. That way you won't have to wait a few turns to shift the cannons around.

I haven't decided whether to bring them or not.
Depends on how close I am to Metallurgy, really.
Since I have Sun Tzu's, I can upgrade in any captured town.

I also thought of having two detachments against Mongolia - one of Riders for the first strike, and one of Muskets and Catapults, getting in position for the second strike, or perhaps on the third(the bigger City).

I'll have to see. I think I have half a dozen or so right now, but I'll be making more to upgrade since I also have Leo's and am heading for Mil.Trad.

I'm yet to play the Celts, mostly because I believe that I'd prefer the Samurai to the Gallic. What do you think??

Gallic Swords are an interesting UU. They are rather expensive, making mass Warrior upgrades difficult due to cash, but they are extremely powerful, as they are as strong as Swordsmen, yet will retreat, giving them, IMO, a ranking somewhere between Swordsman and Knight. Very strong, and if you have a good, productive empire, using a handful to start your GA so you can make gobs more of them works well. Also, even if you are making them on the far side of your empire, the 2-move on your military road network gets them to the frontline pronto.

Give 'em a shot, but don't expect to do a massive warrior-upgrade - you simply cannot accumulate enough cash. Another option is to wait until you have Monarchy or Republic to use them - with mobility, starting your conquests a bit later won't hurt that bad and I abhor a despotic GA.

Also, if you are not enjoying the game, don't worry about finishing it. Everyone has their style. I kind of like China and I make sure that I have dozens of Horseman on hand to upgrade to Riders. I don't think that I would enjoy China as much if I didn't tie this in to my strategy. What makes you prefer Japan to China??

As much as I love industrious, I figured I should try China again, at least long enough to see the UU this time. Granted, I haven't utilized it very well, but I just don't like it as much as Samurai or Gallic Swords or even Numidian Mercs.

I admit I didn't do a great job preparing for the Riders, but I almost always fight my wars with a much smaller force than I should. I also tend to split my force in two fairly often.

The thing that really drove it home for me was losing the culture-border to Japan on my desert cities that really needed a couple of green tiles. Religious simply trumped Industrious this time.

I like culture, I can't stand to build ICS, I hate having Cities without Temples, Libraries, Cathedrals, Universities, Marketplaces - basically, I want everything in every city.

Which is why I'm struggling with this warmonger Darkside thing. I just don't know what the heck I'm doing.

Maybe I should try Azteca and just throw the agression flag as soon as I find a victim and keep on eating the hearts of my foes until I realize the power of the dark side.

Another thing that may have turned me off this one is that it's at Monarch level and I still struggle there.

[Mazarin]

ducki, i can really recommend trying China on a 80% water map...simple strategy: don't expand too much, build barracks, archers first...take over a neighbour...build some improvements (libraries), then swordsmen and so on. You'll see how powerfull the combination of industrious and militaristic is. On such maps you don't need a UU to be dominant.

[ducki]

Mazarin - I think part of the problem on this map was the sheer distance from my starting point to either of my neighbors - being new to the dark side, the distance was just too daunting, especially for an early offensive.
By the time my military had caught up with my expansion, it was Rider-time.


And BRC - one of the reasons I played this one out is, when I learned I was alone with Mongolia and Japan, I was originally upset that I didn't have India for a punching-bag. Then I thought, how silly, surely I can go head to head with another pair of Military civs. Which I've done, just not terribly well. I was determined to see the Age of the Rider this time, though, and for a "builder", I haven't done too bad.
For a bloodthirsty barbarian, I failed.
I know I can win, I just want to see Riders vs. Gunpowder, then I'm probably done.


Thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement. Monarch + AU:PtW mod is much harder than expected. I'm still not ahead in tech and I'm not even sure I'll get Chemistry first. Bleh.

[Dominae]

Having trouble getting the hang of being a bloodthirsty warmonger? Force yourself to the Dark Side (pardon the pun): select a Militaristic/Expansionist civ. You'll find that all your Builder plans very difficult to execute, making conquering other civs the only attractive option. I suggest Vikings for a first attempt, then Zulus for the ultimate Dark Side experience.


Dominae

[ducki]

Tried Vikings and gave up before Invention.

I'm thinking Aztecs and following Vel's recipe here - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=52270

Just to get the hang of it.

[Mad Bomber]

Ducki:

Good job with the war with Japan. Much better than my plays, I was able to capture Nagoya and Nagasaki, but the Japanese conqured mongolia after my invasion force was spent.

As for the build, remember that a shared tile is much less of a problem than an unused tile, which you have several. A small city is better than 4 unused tiles.

Still, you are doing good, the FP belonged nearer to the border, I was too focused on the future palace sight. Your play changing the former FP site to a palace prebuild was astute (why didn't I think of that!!!).

best of luck in the game, keep us posted on its conclusion.

[BRC]

I like culture, I can't stand to build ICS, I hate having Cities without Temples, Libraries, Cathedrals, Universities, Marketplaces - basically, I want everything in every city.

My problems too, although I am coming around. I'm learning when the time to build is. The ICS thing may take a long time for me to get used to.

Maybe I should try Azteca and just throw the agression flag as soon as I find a victim and keep on eating the hearts of my foes until I realize the power of the dark side.

I find that the most efficient approach to the game lies in being totally committed to either the "Light" or the "Dark" side. However, neither approach will leave you as powerful at the end. The Gray area takes time to master, but I think that its a lot more versatile.

And BRC - one of the reasons I played this one out is, when I learned I was alone with Mongolia and Japan, I was originally upset that I didn't have India for a punching-bag. Then I thought, how silly, surely I can go head to head with another pair of Military civs. Which I've done, just not terribly well. I was determined to see the Age of the Rider this time, though, and for a "builder", I haven't done too bad.

I love starting next to India.

When surrounded by a couple of militaristic civs, I try to make quick strikes and peace after 5-10 turns. Oscillate and STICK to the high ground. After a few of these short wars, you have taken/razed a few cities and their production base has shrunk. I find pillaging to be especially effective. Grab any workers that you can on the initial declaration of war, and definately grab them in the peace treaty. I would even take workers over techs in some cases. The key is to keep them from gaining a production advantage. This method allows you to keep them in check and move on to do a similiar thing to another neighbor. As you production base grows, and theirs stagnates, you will be able to beat them with superior numbers or superior technology. It is your choice. This is pretty effective as long as you keep a fairly powerful military on your side. Horseman are great as they oscillate quickly.

[Theseus]

ducki, two comments...

1) The reason I was so emphatic about war between Japan and the Mongols was less about going after the Mongols (i.e., suckers), and more about a) burning both of their GAs, and b) further damaging Japan... in my mind you didn't harm Toku-baby enough in your first go-around.

2) Just once, do me a favor, don;t play Gray, don;t even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! You've got Riders? What are you attacking with? 20-30? Maybe split into two strike forces? Screw that... DOUBLE IT! TRIPLE IT!! Go to total warfare production for a while... you can indulge your Builder needs while the battles are taking place in far off enemy lands. Prolly over the weekend I'll start posting my AU 202 AAR; given the very difficult situation, I had over 50 Horsemen / Keshiks / Cavs running around in oscillating wars. Put it this way: You know you've learned the joy of warmongering when you feel INVINCIBLE.

[BRC]

Do Theseus' posts scare anybody else??



There is wisdom in his words though. Riders could be the most powerful UU. It is true that one extra Library may help you more than one extra Rider, but an additional 4 Riders can be used to extort the tech that you would research. Theseus, can you post a screenshot or save so that I can get an idea of your city-spacing, preferably around your starting city. Thank you.

[Theseus]

Hey, I don;t play that way all the time, but sometimes you gotta be The Beast!

I can't do screenshots tonight, but over the weekend I'll try to find a good save with my representative spacing (actually, AU 202 is not bad). In general, I do 3-tile spacing (meaning 2 between towns / cities), as adjusted for terrain.

Your clarification, however, is very interesting... after a year, I still haven;t decided on spacing around the capitol, nor do I remember having seen any serious discussion of the topic.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Theseus
ducki, two comments...

1) The reason I was so emphatic about war between Japan and the Mongols was less about going after the Mongols (i.e., suckers), and more about a) burning both of their GAs, and b) further damaging Japan... in my mind you didn't harm Toku-baby enough in your first go-around.

I hadn't thought of the GA thing, but I didwant to get them fighting each other (again - they had a brief war early on) just to mess with their economies. Japan spent their GA I know, because I lost at least 1 Samurai battle.
I agree about not damaging Tokie enough, but when you start a war with such a small force (about 8 riders, 2 Med.Inf., 1 Sword), then 3 cities, 1 tech, 100gold and a GA that nets you your FP and a Wonder is ok with me. Maybe my sights are too low.

2) Just once, do me a favor, don;t play Gray, don;t even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!!

That's just it - I don't know how to do that. My builderly tendencies always get in the way because I don't know how to not build improvements - and it's not necessarily culture, but the needed happiness stuff (temples, marketplaces) and future tech needs(libraries) that always ensure my army is just big enough to take about 3 cities, 5 if the RNG is very kind. At least for the first 2 ages.

You've got Riders? What are you attacking with? 20-30? Maybe split into two strike forces?

In this case, try about 8 Riders, initially in 2 forces, then 3 once the first town fell.

Screw that... DOUBLE IT! TRIPLE IT!! Go to total warfare production for a while... you can indulge your Builder needs while the battles are taking place in far off enemy lands.

I try. I really do. But deep down, I want my people to be happy, or at least not openly unhappy.

I guess my problem is, I'm too benevolent.
Maybe I just haven't learned how to wait for happiness and culture.
I want it and I want it now, dammit!


Anyway, I think my next game will be Aztecs, or maybe Germany - at least with Germany, I have an excuse for waiting a while to build temples, as I will start with two military techs, but with the Aztec, maybe I can get momentum on my side early and stick with it.

I dunno.
This warmongering is much tougher than expected.
That's what I get for starting out with Egypt as my favorite.

In general, I do 3-tile spacing (meaning 2 between towns / cities),

/shudder
I hate going 4-tile spacing(3 between) because I like, at least my core, to get big and get big asap.
I'm gonna have to work really hard at this Uncultured Ancient War Machine thing.

[Dominae]

I'm with Theseus on this one: to really be an effective player (that is, to be comfortable somewhere in the 'Gray Zone'), you have to have tasted both the Light Side and the Dark Side in their purest forms.

An early AU scenario ('Give peace a chance' was it?) dictated that no military units could be built during the whole game, which is the purest form of Light Side gameplay (OCC is a close second).

What is a "pure" form of the Dark Side? Well, to be an effective warmonger you do need some improvements; Archer-Archer-Archer...ad infinitum will not work (phew! Civ3 would be boring if it did!). My suggestion is as before: select the worst Builder civs, the Militaristic/Expansionist ones, and make sure you're in a perpetual state of war with at least one civ that you share borders with (this is most easily done on Pangea maps). If you really try to win with such a setup, you'll find the best way to win is to embrace the Dark Side.

By knowing the strengths and weaknesses of various strategies firsthand (not to mention when to employ them), you'll become a better player overall. A great example that comes to mind is Aeson's SVC game: he played an almost pure-builder approach (save for a few conquests with Immortals) for most of the game, then ended it with a gajillion MAs. You could say that the difficulty of the map and the fact that he was playing Deity forced him into that pattern (build first, conquer last), but the skill at which he executed the various stages is evidence of his knowledge of both the Dark Side and the Light Side.

[Aeson, if you're reading this, sorry to put you on the spot and embarass you by giving a lot more praise that you think you deserve...but you have to admit, SVC was a very impressive game!]

So, to make a long story short: embrace the Dark Side. Fully. Don't worry, you'll come back, and stronger than before!


Dominae

[joncnunn]

Re: Help on Monarch - FP + Victim selection

Looking at the map, I'd say that Hangcrow is the best site for the Forbiden Palace. This city will need to finish it's Court House first, along with a Market Place with sufficent luxary access to trigue a WLTPD.

Japan is not a good nation to attack with Riders because they'll have Samuri. Mongolia isn't particulary good either. You will need sufficent Riders to discourage them from thinking about attacking you.

If the AI is outresearching you, turn off reserach for now, hire one scientist and start buying techs as cheaply as possible in gold per turn deals.

Invest the money you save into rushing court houses everywhere and rushing pre-builds to the FP.

Once the FP completes (in a good location like Hangcrow), you should be able to outreserach the AI easily.

Current FP build location though is in a bad spot because much of your empire would have similar CN relative to both P and FP location. (Especally the SW portion)

With the FP at Hangcrow, your empire is roughly evenly split, with any cities you later capture in Mongolia & Japan easily workable with Court Houses.

Originally posted by ducki
Ok, I think my current FP build is a good spot for when I move my palace.

I'm China, and I have Japan and Mongolia on my landmass...
...who do I attack once I get Riders?
Mongolia has lots of mountains on the borders, so the Keshiks will have speed, but Samurai are strong on defense.

Everyone is even with or ahead of me.
What to do, what to do?