Help on Monarch - FP + Victim selection

[Theseus]

Also, I'd probably build and defend an outpost on the hills SW of the gold mountain.

[ducki]

A worker-action Outpost or an "outpost" town?
Or a fort?

You're talking due south of Hangchow, right?

There's no reason not to wait for Gunpowder

I've got a couple, but they're "weak".
1 - Haven't had a single war yet and J and M only fought 1 short one, so I've had no leaders, got no Wonders, am falling behind in tech, etc. because neither of them was crippled or slowed.
My starting spot was so far north from my neighbors that by the time I could actually get Archers to them, it seemed too late and I'd have been overstretched.
2 - I'm getting bored and hungry for blood. I had really hoped to be near India for early warfare, but having Mongolia and Japan as my only neighbors has seriously messed up my Rider plans.

[Arrian]

1. Forget Sun Tzu - try for Leo's!

2. FP in Hangchow

3. I'd either hit the Mongols (easier target, you're not all that strong yet - use to train your Riders so you can hit Japan with Elite Riders & Cav) or ally with the Mongols vs. Japan.

4. If you attack Japan, you may want to consider building several catapults (something I almost never do)... take Nagoya and Izumo right off the bat (easy for your Riders) and then sit tight, using the cats to hurt incoming Samurai and finishing them with Riders.

5. Related to #4 and VERY important: can you cut their iron? How many irons do they have? Where are they? Could a detachment of Riders cut it (them)? If you can cut their iron while eating up their Sams on defense (cats + pikes/muskets and Riders), you will be all set. But if you cannot cut the iron... ouch.

6. Will the conquest of Mongolia open up a better invasion route to Japan? From the map you posted, you have 2 easy city captures (Nagoya, Izumo), one tougher one (Kagoshima - though it is isolated and small) and then you have to cross a nasty mountain range to get to their core. But if you were coming from their west... is there a flatland route to Japan's soft underbelly? If so, perhaps Mongolia should be your first target.

-Arrian

[ducki]

Originally posted by Arrian
1. Forget Sun Tzu - try for Leo's!

I wish! Those shields for SunTzu are leftover from a failed Library attempt. There's no way I can get to Invention before I run out of time unless I starve Beijing, I don't think - I still need both Engineering and Invention and I don't have another placeholder to use. Argh.

2. FP in Hangchow

I believe you guys, but I still don't like putting a new core around such (relatively) worthless towns.

3. I'd either hit the Mongols (easier target, you're not all that strong yet - use to train your Riders so you can hit Japan with Elite Riders & Cav) or ally with the Mongols vs. Japan.

So just a training war? Not really worry about actual taking of cities if it doesn't look doable? Interesting...

4. If you attack Japan, you may want to consider building several catapults (something I almost never do)... take Nagoya and Izumo right off the bat (easy for your Riders) and then sit tight, using the cats to hurt incoming Samurai and finishing them with Riders.
5. Related to #4 and VERY important: can you cut their iron? How many irons do they have? Where are they? Could a detachment of Riders cut it (them)? If you can cut their iron while eating up their Sams on defense (cats + pikes/muskets and Riders), you will be all set. But if you cannot cut the iron... ouch.

See above post - they have 2 connected Irons, one within roaded Samurai range of their capitol and another that's probably "cuttable" - and a 3rd currently unconnected near Nagoya, IIRC.

6. Will the conquest of Mongolia open up a better invasion route to Japan? From the map you posted, you have 2 easy city captures (Nagoya, Izumo), one tougher one (Kagoshima - though it is isolated and small) and then you have to cross a nasty mountain range to get to their core. But if you were coming from their west... is there a flatland route to Japan's soft underbelly? If so, perhaps Mongolia should be your first target.

-Arrian

There's a mountain range that runs South from just West of Xinjian/Hangchow all the way to the other shore, pretty much along the Mongol-Japanese border. Blech.


I can switch my FP build to a Palace and give myself 34 turns to get to a Wonder, but I have nothing to switch Beijing to. Gah!

I think I've screwed myself up.
Being behind in tech for the whole Ancient Age is really messing with me. I've blown most of my treasury just trying to keep up.
Blarg.

[Arrian]

See above post - they have 2 connected Irons, one within roaded Samurai range of their capitol and another that's probably "cuttable" - and a 3rd currently unconnected near Nagoya, IIRC.

Ouch Still, with all those mountains around, you could mountain-hop with some Riders (say 3 of them) to the irons. Riders on Mountains will do bad things to attacking Sams.

Since Mongolia does not offer an easier invasion route to Japan, Japan is probably the right target, with the Mongols as allies (assuming you can afford that... ack!).

I agree that the situation is a tough one.

-Arrian

[ducki]

Originally posted by Arrian
Japan is probably the right target, with the Mongols as allies (assuming you can afford that... ack!).

Damn.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Tuberski: The strategy is to move the palace, not the FP. although a FP there would not hurt, the eventual palace site should be around the Kazan area, and that would be too close to the FP.

I know that, I like to have my FP and my Palace more centrally located on the continent.

As do several other people, obviously.

ACK!

[BRC]

Ducki-

my experience says that if you declare war on the Japanese and take those two "easy" cities, then the Mongols will be willing to join you.

[Mazarin]

Ducki, have you already declared war on the Japanese? If not, they will not accept it...declare war first, then make military alliances.

[ducki]

Ah, I see.
Still waiting to get Invention to trade for Chivalry.
Beefing up militry - pikes, walls, catapults, horses.
more later, holding baby right now.

Thnx for the help so far, all!

[Mazarin]

there is one thing that I'd like to mention on your game so far. I have the impression that you expanded too much: these cities in the desert aren't really productie -are they? IMO, China is the best civ for early wars...building just barracks/ offensive units (maybe one temple or two) from the very beginning could have given you a much more dominant position. In the BCs 10 swordsmen can be much more powerful that 20 Knights later.

[Dominae]

If you want to deal with stacks of doom, leave the Japanese alone for now; if you want to secure your military superiority, declare war on Japan. For the second scenario, a bunch of Pikemen and a few Riders is all you need: you're not conquering just yet, just forcing them to commit.


Dominae

[ducki]

Mazarin - I'm not sure I'd call it "too much". I wanted to stop just before the desert, but I didn't want to have to conquer for Saltpeter, so I staked my claim with "crappy" towns on purpose but not expecting much of them, other than to try to keep Japan out of Gunpowder.

The reason I didn't have an early war is that it was just so darn far to reach either opponent that expansion was a better choice. At least this way I have slightly more income and a shot at a Saltpetre monopoly. Unfortunately, my temples went up much slower than Japan's (this is using the AU mod, so non-modded I might have expanded borders first) so I lost out on 2 or 3 nice green squares at my SouthEast corner that would have been nice to have.

Dominae - I've decided on the Japan attack, I'm just waiting to get my Riders. Unfortunately, I'm behind in tech, so I'm hoping to get Invention early enough to trade for Chivalry or sell Invention so I can both buy Chivalry and upgrade my horsemen - what's that cost, anyway?

I'll post another screen/save later on.


Theseus - I founded a town where you said an Outpost. I figured if I can avoid a culture flip, that gives me a neat little attack entry point and it took away the Gold mountain from Japan. Now if I can just get a barracks built before the modern age

I may end up with SunTzu's even though I don't want it. Oh well, fast healing in conquered towns is always nice.

[Dominae]

ducki, good luck in your efforts. This will probably be the most interesting part of your game, so enjoy it. I suggest delaying a bit until Invention, maybe trading with those civs on the other continent. Can you delay your Sun Tzu's pre-build a few turns?


Dominae

[Mad Bomber]

Ducki:

I take back my previous statements, Japan must be dealt with quickly, and (as of the save in 360AD) you do not have much military, and you are dirt poor. I played it out to about 800AD, and all I can say is good luck,and I hope you do better than me. A very interesting and frustrating game, thanks for posting it.

-Mad Bomber