Civ-Specific Strategy: Americans

[Jawa Jocky]

Could someone defend the Commercial trait now? It has moved to the bottom of my list where Expansionist used to be. I was going to start a new thread with a poll to re-open the entire trait debate yet again, but I have 2 minutes of lunch time left.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
Let me clarify my original point so as not to spur endless debate (which is nonetheless really fun to read): the Religious trait, in comparison to the Industrious and Expansionist traits, is at its best at some point well beyond the 40th turn. If you want benefits right now from turn 1, Americans have the goods.

No argument here.

I believe this is secondary to the relative merits of the Religious trait in general. To convince me that the Egyptians, Iroquois or Arabs have a better early-game trait combination, you would need to show that: 1) super-early Temples directly promote the power of your civ, 2) Ceremonial Burial can be traded at high relative cost, or 3) a beeline to Monarchy helps your early growth. Point 2 is clearly false, and I doubt point 3 is true. Thus, point 1 is the only point of contention, and I happen to be on the skeptical side of the fence. Catt, I'm not saying that the Monarchy beeling is not a good strat (actually, I'm impressed; gotta try it!), just that it's not "early-game".

I was responding more to the stated view that the religious trait's benefits are predominantly "mid-game" benefits as opposed to arguing that religious trumps industrious and expansionist at turn 1. I believe the benefits of the religious trait are broader and are present in all eras of the game -- but I also agree that its effects are more "diluted" it seems to me (and hence my wholehearted argeement that it is tough to beat the American trait combo for "right now" effectiveness at turn 1). IOW, I acknowledged that I was contributing to the off-topic sub-discussion as to whether religious is limited to a "mid-game window" or not.

We can also potentially disagree about what constitutes the transition to "mid-game" but that's probably not a worthwhile discussion - at least not in your fine American thread.

Slightly off-topic: going through the editor, I noticed that some Small Wonders have trait flags checked (for instance, Heroic Epic is Militaristic). Does this mean that you can trigger a GA with them (or, at least, fulfill that half of a GA's requirements)? I also noticed that The Colosssus is Expansionist, Commercial and Religious. This makes it the only Wonder with three traits. Is this normal?

Small wonders won't help with the GA - it's my guess (only a guess) that the trait flags are included either due to (1) an early decision decision that was later reversed in game development; or (2) to assist the AI in determining the advisability of builds. (Did you by chance check on the Great Wall? I thought it was both Mil and Ind but don't have access to the editor here at work).

The Colossus has always had all three traits (don't know why) and it is sometimes annoying to discover this -- many have discovered it the hard way by triggering a GA inadvertantly since, IIRC, the Civilopedia only lists the Colussus as "GA-inducing" for Exp and Com civs. I didn't want to build it in AU 202 even with a coastal capitol (playing the Arabs) because I was hoping to race to Monarchy before a GA, but ended up "racing" at a snail's pace. And, with PTW, the Internet has all 6 traits flagged!

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
Could someone defend the Commercial trait now?

I think it is tough to defend empirically because its benefits are nor readily apparent. Perhaps you could build a largish "pre-made" empire in the editor and change the empire's civ's traits in two scenarios to generate some concrete facts (income, production, etc.) that would help quantify the value of the commercial trait. Lots of work for little pay-off, IMHO. Without an example and known data set to play with, it is very difficult to quantify (which results in most commercial defenses consisiting of vague "wow, I was raking in the cash in the Industrial Age; commercial is great!").

Catt

[BRC]

Slightly off-topic: going through the editor, I noticed that some Small Wonders have trait flags checked (for instance, Heroic Epic is Militaristic).

My HE is religious, Ptw 1.14 Can someone check on this?

Dom, you know I like the religious too. In the AU mod, with Democracy giving free unit support, the value of Religious is increased. I understand why this was done, but does it make you want Religious when you play the AU mod?? I know it does for me.

Small wonders won't help with the GA - it's my guess (only a guess) that the trait flags are included either due to (1) an early decision decision that was later reversed in game development; or (2) to assist the AI in determining the advisability of builds. (Did you by chance check on the Great Wall? I thought it was both Mil and Ind but don't have access to the editor here at work).

Catt, my last game as the Egyptians, (the one that Dom looked at), I triggered my golden Age after building the Hanging Gardens. The only wonder I had built was the HE. I did capture a city with the Oracle in it sometime around there, but, are you sure that Small Wonders can't trigger GA?? (ptw 1.14)

the Religious trait, in comparison to the Industrious and Expansionist traits, is at its best at some point well beyond the 40th turn. If you want benefits right now from turn 1, Americans have the goods.

You are right that most of the Religious payoffs aren't SEEN until later on. I noticed from your games that you like immediate benefit from everything you do. I prefer some immediate benefit, but I also have nothing wrong with building for the future. (I'm not trying to start anything, merely commenting on what I noticed.)

I do agree with your statement that Expansionist and Industrious traits complement each other very well.

The cultural power of early warfare + cheap temples is awesome. So much so that I have a friend who (after unwilling winning several games he wanted to milk for score - via culture) will deliberately not build cathedrals. As in he just won't ever build them. He often plays as the Iroquois on large/large maps and usually ends up with a staggeringly huge empire 'round about the beginning of the middle ages. Dunno why

It seems to me that Arrian's "friend" knows that early culture can lead to a win. Does this cultural win occur faster than your Domination/Spaceship/Whatever win??

As I try to improve, I don't concentrate on how fast I can win the game. Rather, I work on how efficiently I win the game. I like to be in control of all 8 luxuries. That's just the way I am. I also like to be able to say that I had no close calls, and I had no lucky breaks.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Catt
(Did you by chance check on the Great Wall? I thought it was both Mil and Ind but don't have access to the editor here at work).

Sorry, I completely forgot about your question. The Great Wall is indeed both Militaristic and Industrious (presmably so that China triggers a GA automatically upon building it, just like the Egyptians do with The Pyramids...I wonder why the same was not done for the Babylonians with the Hanging Gardens).


Dominae

[Catt]

Originally posted by BRC


My HE is religious, Ptw 1.14 Can someone check on this?

That's what I thought too - Dominae is being saddled with editor checks on behalf of those of us without current access.

Catt, my last game as the Egyptians, (the one that Dom looked at), I triggered my golden Age after building the Hanging Gardens. The only wonder I had built was the HE. I did capture a city with the Oracle in it sometime around there, but, are you sure that Small Wonders can't trigger GA?? (ptw 1.14)

The wonder-induced GA mechanics are a little non-intuitive. The way it seems to work is that every time you build a wonder, your civ is checked to see if it controls wonders with the correct civ traits. This check is not done upon wonder capture. What this means in game terms is that the Egyptians will trigger a GA by building the Pyramids, but not by capturing them. If, however, the Egyptians capture the Pyramids, they can then build Sun Tzu's (militaristic only) and still trigger their GA (because the "GA check" shows possession of GWs with both Ind and Rel attributes). In your specific case, you captured the Oracle (Rel) and built the HG (Ind) -- the "GA check" happened upon your build, and the Oracle (not HE) satisfied the trigger.

Catt

[BRC]

The wonder-induced GA mechanics are a little non-intuitive. The way it seems to work is that every time you build a wonder, your civ is checked to see if it controls wonders with the correct civ traits. This check is not done upon wonder capture. What this means in game terms is that the Egyptians will trigger a GA by building the Pyramids, but not by capturing them. If, however, the Egyptians capture the Pyramids, they can then build Sun Tzu's (militaristic only) and still trigger their GA (because the "GA check" shows possession of GWs with both Ind and Rel attributes). In your specific case, you captured the Oracle (Rel) and built the HG (Ind) -- the "GA check" happened upon your build, and the Oracle (not HE) satisfied the trigger.

Appreciate the clarification. I know someone else did this in another thread too, but I did not know with Small Wonders.

So, no one really knows what the SW flags are for????

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
My HE is religious, Ptw 1.14 Can someone check on this?

Sorry, the Heroic Epic is indeed Religious (not that it matters...see the point after next).

Originally posted by BRC
Dom, you know I like the religious too. In the AU mod, with Democracy giving free unit support, the value of Religious is increased. I understand why this was done, but does it make you want Religious when you play the AU mod?? I know it does for me.

I would switch to Democracy if I were playing a Religious civ, playing the AU mod or no. And no, the slight advantage of Democracy introduced in the AU mod does not entice me to play Religious (not at this time, at least), mostly because it's eclipsed by the faster Worker rate.

Originally posted by BRC
Catt, my last game as the Egyptians, (the one that Dom looked at), I triggered my golden Age after building the Hanging Gardens. The only wonder I had built was the HE. I did capture a city with the Oracle in it sometime around there, but, are you sure that Small Wonders can't trigger GA?? (ptw 1.14)

From joncnunn's post, controlling The Oracle meant that you had met the Religious requirement (doesn't matter that you didn't build it). When you built the Hanging Gardens, the Industrious requirement was also met, and so you triggered your GA. Nothing to do with the Heroic Epic.

Originally posted by BRC
You are right that most of the Religious payoffs aren't SEEN until later on. I noticed from your games that you like immediate benefit from everything you do. I prefer some immediate benefit, but I also have nothing wrong with building for the future. (I'm not trying to start anything, merely commenting on what I noticed.)

Ha, you're psycho-analyzing me, aren't you! "You like immediate benefits in everything you do"...

Seriously, I've come to play this way because I think early benefits translate into great rewards later on. Early investements translate into mediocre rewards (at least in Civ3). For instance, conquering your neighbour instead early will always be better in the long run than building Temples (I can just sense the flames coming on this one!). Those extra turns that you control those cities produces a geometric effect later on. Temples double in Culture once only. And think about it: the more cities you can have early on, the more Temples you can build (if that's your thing)!

Originally posted by BRC
As I try to improve, I don't concentrate on how fast I can win the game. Rather, I work on how efficiently I win the game. I like to be in control of all 8 luxuries. That's just the way I am. I also like to be able to say that I had no close calls, and I had no lucky breaks.

You and I use the term "efficiently" in different ways then. I see "efficient" as "lossless" and "not wasteful", so in my eyes having all your citizens Happy is wasteful (unless you need a WLTKD). From your comments, you see "efficient" as "higher relative advantage". For me, close calls and lucky breaks are part of the fun, which is why I didn't much enjoy the Ultimate Power AU game. Different people, different tastes.


Dominae

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
For instance, conquering your neighbour instead early will always be better in the long run than building Temples (I can just sense the flames coming on this one!). Those extra turns that you control those cities produces a geometric effect later on. Temples double in Culture once only. And think about it: the more cities you can have early on, the more Temples you can build (if that's your thing)!

I can't imagine how someone can flame you on that point -- I would love to see someone try and argue that building early temples is more powerful than conquering a neighbor early; the mental gymnastics, logical leaps, and outright falsehoods that would seem to be necessary to carrying the day on that argument would be quite the show .

But the question around early temples isn't: Conquer or Culture? It is: Conquer AND Culture. Finding the sweetspots in a city's build queue to slip in that 30-shiled temple is the key. To frame the analysis I would ask the questions: (1) Will building temples instead of units prevent me from conquering a neighbor early?; assuming "no," then (2) will the additional units I could build instead of temples generate longer-term benefits than temples? Point (2) is the tricky one, since it is difficult to accurately quantify the long-term benefits of early temples and also difficult to accurately quantify the value-add to the early war of the extra units that the temple-builder would otherwise forego.

Sorry to keep the thread-jack running, but the thread-starter seems to be a willing participant, so I don't feel too badly

( says, "I want a Santa hat" )
EDIT: New says, "I got a Santa hat"

Catt

[BRC]

For instance, conquering your neighbour instead early will always be better in the long run than building Temples

Totally agree with you here. Everyone needs more room for cities.

I would switch to Democracy if I were playing a Religious civ, playing the AU mod or no.

Sorry. I was assuming that you stay in Republic due to the Anarchy and lousy payoff. That's just what I've heard from most of the others.

Ha, you're psycho-analyzing me, aren't you! "You like immediate benefits in everything you do"...

Just trying to learn. I haven't had a whole lot of gaming experience to know what works yet.

You and I use the term "efficiently" in different ways then. I see "efficient" as "lossless" and "not wasteful", so in my eyes having all your citizens Happy is wasteful (unless you need a WLTKD). From your comments, you see "efficient" as "higher relative advantage". For me, close calls and lucky breaks are part of the fun, which is why I didn't much enjoy the Ultimate Power AU game. Different people, different tastes.

I want every game to be a UP game. No doubt about it. It is true that I enjoy the end of the game less, but when I start to pull away, that's where I feel good. I guess you see why I needed some encouragement to move up to Emperor. Gonna try Japan.

But the question around early temples isn't: Conquer or Culture? It is: Conquer AND Culture.

Yes. If I think that my units are not going to be enough, a temple does not get built. No question. I'm terrified of the later flips, but my safety in the beginning comes first.

Arrian's whole method of rushing temples works extremely well. I use it in my outlying cities all the time. The unhappiness is taken care of by the temple, you get early culture, your borders get sealed.... I think the value of Religious is taken down a bit if you are not able to incorporate this strategy.

[Arrian]

I want every game to be a UP game. No doubt about it. It is true that I enjoy the end of the game less, but when I start to pull away, that's where I feel good.

You suffer from the same affliction I do. Just winning doesn't cut it.

Incidentally, I've come up with a way to perk up the late(r) part of the game: Privateers. When you have UP, you can easily afford to crank out 20 or so privateers. See if you can destroy the combined navies of the remaining AI civs. It's like fighting a war... without fighting a war. I'll even take on ironclads. 2-3 privateers will take them down.

Or, alternatively, you could use that nifty religious trait and switch back to Monarchy and just declare a neverending war on the remaining civs. Take your time. No need to rush it. Break things. Slowly. Carefully.

I may be evil.

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

There is a huge production advantages to cities with CN > 4 having a WLTPD pre-Police Station. (For commerical civs, it's CN> 5).

Having a WLTPD acts like a free additional Court House (production only.)

Post-Police Stations, WLTPD still give huge production advantages to cities with CN > 10. (For Commerical, civs, it's CN > 12.)

Having 12 Happy Citizens is excelent.

11 Happy Citizens + 1 Unhappy citizen though might as well be 6 Happy Citizens + 6 Unhappy citizens.

Originally posted by Dominae

You and I use the term "efficiently" in different ways then. I see "efficient" as "lossless" and "not wasteful", so in my eyes having all your citizens Happy is wasteful (unless you need a WLTKD). From your comments, you see "efficient" as "higher relative advantage". For me, close calls and lucky breaks are part of the fun, which is why I didn't much enjoy the Ultimate Power AU game. Different people, different tastes.

Dominae

[Dominae]

Still, even with those "huge" production advantages, those corrupt cities will contribute next-to-nothing to your empire. Unless you like building in your core cities and disbanding in your corrupt cites (which I find really tedious and dumb), most of the time you're better served by just growing the pop and using Specialists. WLTKDs are useful only in those few cities that are minimally productive, yet not totally corrupt.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Dominae,

I am a big fan of WLTKD, and I think you are gravely underestimating its power.

It's not that 1 shield city that you can coax up to 4 shields that really matters (except when you are building the FP from scratch: that's a big deal), it's the "near-core" cities that really benifit. Cities that, with a courthouse & WLTKD are now nearly the equals (production-wise) of your core. That's where it pays off.

joncnunn is absolutely right that 11 happy, 1 unhappy is worthless. In fact, depending on the city (just about any but the rings immediately surrounding the capitol and FP), I will often pull that 12th citizen off the land and make him a taxman. *presto* I have WLTKD, which more than covers the shields the 12 citizen was "producing" but I wasn't getting anyway. It's a BIG difference.

This is why I'm such a luxurymonger, and why I love the Sistine. Get a temple & courthouse, and getting a size 6 city into WLTKD usually requires that only the 6th citizen be made an entertainer. Use the WLTKD boost to build a cathedral. Put citizen back on land. Build aqueduct, then a market. You may be surprised at how well that city ends up.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Yes, I understand the power of WLTKD. Here's the way I see it: there's the core cities (around your 2 Palaces), there's the mid-distance cities, and there's the outlying (totally corrupt) cities. In my experience, the first and third groups (really close and really far) are much bigger than the middle group. Admittedly, this depends on a lot of things, primarily geography. I do agree that WLTKD is amazing in the right circumstances. But getting those few cities up and running with a Temple, Cathedral, J.S. Bach's, etc. so that they're celebrating when they've got all their Luxuries is nonetheless expensive. So, for an important part of the game, I'm happy with just keeping my citizens (a majority of which are in the core) from revolting. Of course, grabbing extra Luxuries is never a bad thing, either.


Dominae

[Arrian]

My experience is that I can usually get most, if not all, of a 4-5 civ continent (originally that is, before I killed the 3-4 neighbors) to be productive. By that I mean less that 50% shield loss. A really good city (w/RRs, factory & hoover) will put out around 100 shields (the best ones, most end up in the 70-90 range). So lots of my fringe cities, in WLTKD end up producing 35-50 shields. It definitely takes work, and doesn't really pay off until RRs, factories and hoover when the game is probably already won, but...

I like efficiency. Plus, there is a development stage in the mid-to-late middle ages where WLTKD in that middle band of cities you mention (no idea why yours have low pop other than desert or something) can really give you a boost, allowing those cities to build things in a reasonable amount of time such that they can be turned into powerhouses once RRs show up.

-Arrian