the great library

[jshelr]

Good subject for debate. I've tried playing on huge maps on higher levels and just found it the same story dragged out over weeks instead of days.

I don't mean that GWs are useless. But.........

1) At higher levels you don't get them. The AI does.

2) At higher levels you are small, even on large maps if you include the suggested number of civs and unless you fight early. So, being small, GW's help less and the cost of happiness buildings in each city as substitutes for GWs adds up to less.

3) Most importantly in my book, at least, if you are spending resources to build GWs you can't fight early with as much power as if you focus on units and barracks. It's staggering to think about how many swordmen can you build / upgrade for the cost of the pyramids.

So, I conclude that warmongers should steal GWs and not build them. Even the GL costs too much, assuming you can get it, relative to the cost of beating the AI up to demand the techs up to education, IMO. As a side benefit, you get all that land.

I also think that you can't get 60 productive cities anyway. You can probably get 20 decent performers early enough to matter assiming you have a great FP placement. If you are evaluating the benefits of GWs, don't count the impact on huge numbers of cities, just the ones that are really cooking with gas.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
to jshelr: Useless GW? Try and play on large map, controlling up to 60 cities, without:

-pyramids, to boost early growth;
-great library, allows you to turn the tech slider down to 0% and save LOTS of money;
-sistine and bach's, unhappy citizens+democracy= you know what;
the lighthouse, start on an island away from everyone and you'll never know when you'll have to fight stealths with your pikemen (it actually happened to me- not that I'm proud of it, huh )

and so on..

I suspect that by useless it is meant that it is useless to try and get most of them at EmpDeity and often even Monarch. I can get GL at Monarch and even Emp and maybe Sistine if I must. Often I have to let them go. The pyramids are of no value to me and I can't get them unless some extra ordinary event ocurrs. Below MOnarch, you can do what ever you wish.

[Datajack Franit]

So have a look at my current game and tell me if it's really impossible and useless building Wonders:

[vmxa1]

Well what can I say. In any event, I did not use the word never or impossible. I just said I often have to let them go and I don't want the pyramids, I would rather have units or useful structure in a few cities.I am not even saying that is the way one should play, only how I play. Anyway great job.

[Golden Bear]

It was not until I moved up to Monarch that I actually bothered to build the GL! My real priority has always been the Sistine Chapel. There has only been one game recently when I have NOT had the SC and I was not happy about it - then again, neither were my citizens

I read about people building Pyramids early on but I find that I cannot really afford to devote a city to building a Wonder until I am fairly deep in the game. Given the aggressiveness of neighbors, particularly if they know that you do not have a strong military, I find that my best build path actually involves building barracks' early on. Am I unusual in this?

My games are usually:
initial growth, etc.
build spearmen and horsemen and find 1-2 conveniently placed neighbors to "adopt."
then I maintain and grow while planning for tech equality crossover some time around feudalism.

Carlos

[Datajack Franit]

Actually I have the huge advantage of playing as germans- free feudalism allows to start building Sun Tzu's very early, and selling it to the other civs it's a great boost to growth. I agree that building Pyramids can be a waste of time, but remember they never get obsolete.

-vmxa1, sorry for being rude I agree to some of your points btw

In my current game I was so damn lucky to find the persians and crush them before they could get the immortals- they surrendered and gave me 3 cities around 1500 BC, so if I did such a good job it was partially some luck- but not only

But I say, start building a wonder around 1500-1200 BC, and you will definitely get something- the Oracle at least (or a veeeeery expensive temple )

[vmxa1]

Datajack Franit , I am going to beg your paron right off here for what I am going to say. I just went back to the game discover it was played with RNG off. This makes everything suspect to me. I have no idea if or how it was used so forgive me for being concerned. I had no problem with anyone doing that, but it makes all result worthless. I can think of so many ways to up my outcome. At emp/deity you can get techs from huts that you would not have for a very long time. Battles can be fought endlessly until the desired outcome is obtained. This leads one to wonder if the map was not cooked. If you accomplished the outcome fair and square that is truely great and amazing to me and I am sorry to cast any doubts, if that is so, but you can see my eye brow go up when I see the RNG is not used. None of those pesky losing steaks or arties that miss all shots. Ironclads no longer sink DD or BB's.

[punkbass2000]

How do you get Feudalism free with the Germans??

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
How do you get Feudalism free with the Germans??

The question was not addressed so I am not sure what it is in response to, so I will guess it was my point about getting tech. If so, I was talking about going to a hut and seeing what you get. If it is not a tech you can reload until you get a tech or whatever makes you happy, instead of all of those barbs or maps or deserted. If you do this to quite a few huts you find yourself off to make a wonder that you would not have had the tech for till much later. No need to trade a tech on contact you have all of theirs already. This slows them down as most players will trade the starting tech. You will not be getting techs form the next age. Again I am not saying this was done, only that what is the point of not using the saved RNG, if not to reload? Answer, none. Since the AI does not get to reload when a poor results pops up, it is an abuse. If one does it for fun, no sweat, if one does and then say look how good I did, is that still ok? I would then wonder if a map was maybe created and made favorable to the player? Maybe I am just too cynical.

[punkbass2000]

Sorry, that was directed towards DataJack Franit, who wrote, "Actually I have the huge advantage of playing as germans- free feudalism allows to start building Sun Tzu's very early...". IN response to your comments, however, I must say that, AFAIK, one cannot get Middle Age techs via huts.

[Datajack Franit]

Datajack Franit , I am going to beg your paron right off here for what I am going to say. I just went back to the game discover it was played with RNG off. This makes everything suspect to me. I have no idea if or how it was used so forgive me for being concerned. I had no problem with anyone doing that, but it makes all result worthless. I can think of so many ways to up my outcome. At emp/deity you can get techs from huts that you would not have for a very long time. Battles can be fought endlessly until the desired outcome is obtained. This leads one to wonder if the map was not cooked. If you accomplished the outcome fair and square that is truely great and amazing to me and I am sorry to cast any doubts, if that is so, but you can see my eye brow go up when I see the RNG is not used. None of those pesky losing steaks or arties that miss all shots. Ironclads no longer sink DD or BB's.

-wmxa1, no need to apologize for asking a very clever question! RNG is random seed preserve I guess? You're totally right in asking if I didn't used it to cheat in the game, so the only thing I can give you it's just my word. I despise cheating, so I always refused to re-load games to get easy fights- it's that I forgot to turn it on, only that. From my next game I'll remember to turn it on, k?

Btw the game was played with NO barbarians- no barbarian camps, no goody huts, no free techs (to me and to other civs, because thinking at Cleo getting 10 free techs using her damn chariot is NOT fair) nothing at all. The only way I could have cheated was being so damn lucky to capture Pasagardae with 3 warriors so early, that cleaned the whole southern continent and paved the road to victory. But I really can tell you I didn't use random seed to get advantages- just I didn't know what the hell it was when I started the game
I also always turn off auto-save and overwrite every savefile with the same name (you can see it's not 1800AD.sav, but just germans.sav)
It's my word against yours but I hope you can trust what I say - I wouldn't have lost so many cities in damn greek revolts, retire and look the game-record if you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about
For further questions just ask out! I'm not shy

-punkbass2000, germans are scientific and get Monotheism when entering Middle Ages- I just turned off science slider to 0% after getting the GL, turned it on to 100% as soon I got into the new epoch, burned all the saved gold to research Feudalism and started building Sun Tzu's- and losing it to the greeks

[Datajack Franit]

I would then wonder if a map was maybe created and made favorable to the player?

No way- the map was created by the computer (I have better things to do than wasting my time in that way- I would have also denied myself coal, thanks to the romans who sold it to me :lol : )
The game settings were continents (but it looks more like a pangea? maybe I pressed the wrong button ) 4 billions, wet, warm, no barbs, emperor, diplomatic/spaceship victory off