the great library

[Bella Hella]

i'm playing on monarch difficulty (i know, i'm a wuss), and my entire strategy relies on building the great library. the other day, the stupid americans beat me to it by 18 turns. i think this might be the first time this ever happened. i quit the game in frustration and started a new one.

so the question - on these higher difficulty levels, what do you do if you can't build the great library? i want to move up to emperor, but i keep hearing these horror stories about sitting there with spearmen while everybody has modern armor, desperately trying to catch up to the AI for the whole game. i just can't picture that at ALL - by the time i reach the industrial era, i'm usually doing great and can choose the type of victory i want to pursue. i guess the only answer is to build up your treasury and income, try to get luxuries and then try to trade for/buy tech, huh. any other thoughts?

[nbarclay]

(1) On Monarch, if you're willing to micromanage, it is generally quite possible to out-tech the AI doing your own research. (If you're crowded, you may have to grab some territory from an AI or two to have enough cities to do it.)

(2) If you don't get the Great Library but the AI that does is nearby, taking it away from them can be an interesting option. (In one Emperor-level game, I even deliberately delayed an attack on Paris to give France time to finish the Great Library for me ).

(3) In some circles, beating techs out of the AIs - attacking, capturing some cities, and then making peace in return for some tech - is a popular strategy. (Warning: the more you fight a given AI, the longer it is likely to wait before engaging in peace talks.)

Nathan

[Arrian]

Bella Hella,

First of all, you're not a wimp for playing Monarch level. I play Monarch level, and I'm not a wimp, damnit!

Second, the best way to make sure you get the GL is to use the Pyramids as a shieldholder and beeline for literature. Once you have lit, you can switch to the GL. It won't work every time, but it gives you a good shot.

Personally, if I build the GL it's usually via a great leader. I like to use #3 on nbarclay's list. Instead of investing hundreds of shields in the GL, I invest hundreds of shields in my armed forces, and unleash hell on my neighbors. That doesn't work every time either, of course.

-Arrian

[jshelr]

What I like about the higher difficulty level is that the game is not a sure thing slam dunk with 10 hours of busy work needed to end the damn thing. Above Monarch, the AI has enough advantages to give you a real run for your money, even if you have a lead.

The option is to persue perfection on Monarch IMO. Once you get your personal technique ironed out, I bet you will beat Monarch virtually every time. So, the fun is to try to beat the game as thoroughly and rapidly as possible.

Note that I'm not that good at persuing perfection, so I make a virtue out of the competitiveness angle. To each his or her own is the right answer.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by nbarclay

...

(3) In some circles, beating techs out of the AIs - attacking, capturing some cities, and then making peace in return for some tech - is a popular strategy. (Warning: the more you fight a given AI, the longer it is likely to wait before engaging in peace talks.)

Nathan

To my experience this is no longer a useful strategy after the 1.29 patch. They value their tech so high that they rather die than give it away. You have to beat them to the brink of death, and by then they seldom have anything useful to give you anyway.

If do an archer rush then perhaps you could do it, but I think that's kinda lame, like the zergling rush in Starcraft

[Arrian]

Olaf,

I have no problem beating tech out of the AI using 1.29. Of course, I knock them down to 1 city before even trying to make peace, so they really don't have a choice in the matter.

-Arrian

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Arrian
Olaf,

I have no problem beating tech out of the AI using 1.29. Of course, I knock them down to 1 city before even trying to make peace, so they really don't have a choice in the matter.

-Arrian

Do they still have something to give you?

[Theseus]

It is a little harder post-1.29f, but yeah, beating tech out of the AI civs is alive and well.

Tech extortion... don't leave home without it.

[Datajack Franit]

No way! While it's impossible to defeat the AI in Deity (I remember losing the run to the Hanging Gardens by ONE turn- quite got to cry for the frustration ) you still can lead the tech ladder in the game in easier levels-even emperor level.

Build the damn capital at the first turn, then build a warrior- if you're lucky enough you'll be able to have a second city around 3000BC, otherwise build another warrior, then the settler- second city MUST be built not later than 2800 BC. Have the second city build a worker, then let it expand your empire. As soon as your capital has produced the third settler (1800-1600 BC) start building the Pyramids (later you'll switch to GL) - forget about the temple, it will takes you 8 turns at least, you can take care of citizens with warriors and putting 40% of money on entertainment. This will slow tech and expansion, but if you don't do that, forget about winning the game. If you're lucky enough you'll get it- usually other civs are able to build it around 700-800 BC, otherwise switch to Pyramids, that aren't that bad too.

Btw you better do that on the second or third city you build- at least you can switch to palace and hope to find another tech later, as Great Wall or Sun Tzu- that playing as scientific civ, huh

I remember losing the GL to the Greeks, then invading them- as soon as I got Athens I received up to 15 techs (!) and upgraded my horsemen to knights (have you a slightest idea of how hard is it to fight damn hoplites? I made ALL my cities produce them, while I was in the middle ages the damn Cleo was building Sistine )

[Laertes]

Or play an expansionist civ, beeline to Monarchy, and let your scouts run around as a kind of mobile GL, tipping huts.

I play Monarchy too, but so rarely get the Library that I had stopped trying. In my last game, I got pipped to the Pyramids, bought Literature on the same turn for 180L, got the Library in about 6 goes and got 6-8 techs, plus fuedalism, eng, inv, theo (I'll take the Sistine, thanks) gunpowder rather surprisingly and of course, education (too good to last)

Monarchy is not for wimps!

[Bella Hella]

LOL, thanks for making me feel better about playing on monarch. i realize it's not a "wussy" level, but i feel like i'm ready to move up, and i'm scared... (of course, i felt this way before moving from warlord to regent, too).

i just can't imagine going through a game without having the great library, but as you guys are saying, there are ways. the worst was last night, when some cruel civ decided to research education before i got the sweet techs i was waiting for. (an AI researching education before gunpowder? incontheivable!!)

so the bottom line is that i need to be a lot more aggressive in order to generate GLs and/or beat techs out of the AI, and/or take the city that has the great library.

i generally beeline directly for literature and immediately start the library. often i don't have the required tech to build the pyramids, or an AI builds them almost immediately, so i usually can't use it as a shieldholder. and of course the capital is usually the best city to build GWs and you can't shield-hold with a palace or FP.

What I like about the higher difficulty level is that the game is not a sure thing slam dunk with 10 hours of busy work needed to end the damn thing. Above Monarch, the AI has enough advantages to give you a real run for your money, even if you have a lead.

The option is to persue perfection on Monarch IMO. Once you get your personal technique ironed out, I bet you will beat Monarch virtually every time. So, the fun is to try to beat the game as thoroughly and rapidly as possible.

Note that I'm not that good at persuing perfection, so I make a virtue out of the competitiveness angle. To each his or her own is the right answer.

agreed. i can't beat monarch EVERY time (without a good starting location), but i generally do pretty well, which is why i feel up for the challenge of a higher difficulty level. to be sure, there are many, many ways to play this game and have fun. i also plan to do some crappy starting location games and continue on with them. i tend to restart if i start in a desert or have an AI breathing down my neck from the beginning.

edit - duh, screwed up the "quote" tag

[Sheik]

I have lost the GL by something like five turns before.

You are right you will need a large amount of money to catch up in tech and must persue a research path that no one else is taking, this will make trade easier. Try to be pacifist until you have a good sized military and then choose a nearby civ and start to take them over.

[JohnM2433]

If you really want a sheild-holder, you can mod the game and create a "Pre-Build" city improvement that costs an absurd amount of sheilds and does nothing. Some would probably consider this cheating, in large part because the AI wouldn't know how to use it. (Or would they? We could use this modification to see if the AI knows how to pre-build. I doubt they do.)

[jshelr]

BTW, I don't even try to build wonders on Emperor or above any more. I'd suggest that they are not cost effective, for the most part, if you are a small civ. And, if you have managed to become a large civ early in those higher levels, you are going to win anyway.

If you are thinking about moving to Emperor from Monarch, it might help to consider two things

1) There is no reason to get excited about being a couple of techs behind. You are much better at combat than the AI and only need to be reasonably close on the military tech.

This is because

2) Buying tech, especially an older tech, is very inexpensive relative to researching it

I actually value a pile of gold more highly than tech parity because it lets me control the diplomacy situation. Attack me and I'll bribe China to attack you.

If you lurk around in the background and wait for a good opportunity you will get your chance to win on higher levels. You just can't brute force the result quite as easily. Cunning and patience are valued more highly, which is why some great players don't play at higher levels.

[Datajack Franit]

to jshelr: Useless GW? Try and play on large map, controlling up to 60 cities, without:

-pyramids, to boost early growth;
-great library, allows you to turn the tech slider down to 0% and save LOTS of money;
-sistine and bach's, unhappy citizens+democracy= you know what;
the lighthouse, start on an island away from everyone and you'll never know when you'll have to fight stealths with your pikemen (it actually happened to me- not that I'm proud of it, huh )

and so on..