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  • Question on Mixed Army Stats

    This thread probably belongs in the General Forum, but the regular presence of so many army experts in the Strat Fourm and the small twist in strategy that I will try and place on the question compel me to post here.

    PLaying 1.29f, Emperor, no mods, my civ is Russia. I just added a Cossak (6.4.3) to an army of 2 knights (4.3.2). See the screen shot below -- the "stats" of the army are listed as 5.3.2. Now, I've always known that an army moves only as fast as its slowest unit. I've certainly used my fair share of mixed armies on the past, and though I can't say I paid dilligent attention to army stats in the past, I always thought that a mixed army showed the stats of the "top-most" unit. The "5" attack doesn't match any unit in the army, but it does match the rounded average of the three attack values (6+4+4)/3. Similarly, the defense stat (3) matches the rounded defense average of the three defense values (4+3+3)/3.

    So, my question: Is the ADM of the army purely eye candy, and when attacking, does the army have an attack value of 6 while the cossack attacks, dropping to 4 when the cossack yields to a knight? Same Q for defense stats. What are the strategic implications of the answers? (See, this does belong in the Strat Forum ).

    Obscure Reference, in a sultry, female, faceless voice: "Well, boppers, it looks as if our ball players have struck out in the subway, and the Warriors are now headed uptown."

    Catt

    Edit for spelling.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Catt; August 19, 2002, 13:34.

  • #2
    Naw, just eye candy, although sometimes a good shortcut.

    The units act individually, in a series starting with the strongest unit for the application. So in this example, on both attack and defense, the Cossack goes first for each individual battle. They evidently 'share' the remaining hps for each individual battle, so if total hps available are 12, the Cossack gets 4, and if total hps available are, say, 8, I believe the Cossack gets 1/3, rounded, for 3.

    That's a nice combo, btw.

    And yes, I've decided that our leetle friend thought he was bringing a gun to a knife fight, only to get stabbed in the hand.

    [Edit: ps, better hope Arrian doesn't pay too much attention to the picture... oh, look what I've gone and done...]
    The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

    Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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    • #3
      Yeah! This anti-perfectionist and borg way you never will gain Ultimate Power .

      Comment


      • #4
        I never noticed those Army stats before!

        Yes, they are eye candy indeed, but a surprisingly good estimate to the exact stats. Use this Army combat calculator to see for yourself. (By the way, what happened to the other thread where I posted this? Did it get deleted because of the link to CF?)

        Examples: (all veteran with defender 50% bonus)
        Average strength 3
        2 Immortals + 1 pikeman vs pikeman win 90% of the time
        3 swordsmen vs pikeman win 91% of the time
        Average strength 4.67
        2 cavalries and a horseman vs rifleman win 80% of the time
        1 cavalry and 2 knights vs rifleman win 80% of the time
        Attached Files

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        • #5
          Thanks all; I figured it was just eye candy, but thought I'd defer to the collective wisdom.

          Alexman - great calc - I saw that in the other thread but didn't have time to post before.

          Sir Ralph (and Arrian): this was/is a very challenging game. Basically all land northeast of Kiev and the Sverdlosk desert was jungle -- with the desert to the east and northwest, I was left with very little suitable terrain (especially without an industrious civ). It's a small map, everything random, and I turned off "culturally linked starting positions" which I usually leave on. Net result was that I experienced a GA-turbo-charged impi invasion from the Zulus to my south (who had a bunch of grassland and bonus tiles), and the occassional skirmish with the Americans to my northeast and Japanese to my northwest. I think Shaka invaded without warning (and in the process broke treaties) 3 separate times before about 200 AD. I actually gave up the first time I played it (after being reduced to one city) and replayed it from several hundred years after the start point - it was kind of a "Aeson iceberg impossible start" for my skill level - lots of fun! [BTW, I think the game is now in hand - just entered into the modern age and am fighting (and beating) the Egyptian powerhouse -- I have allowed Shaka to live and don't control my own continent - yet.]

          Catt
          Last edited by Catt; August 19, 2002, 15:26.

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          • #6
            I also meant the Dark Side of Arrian...
            The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

            Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Theseus
              The units act individually, in a series starting with the strongest unit for the application. So in this example, on both attack and defense, the Cossack goes first for each individual battle. They evidently 'share' the remaining hps for each individual battle, so if total hps available are 12, the Cossack gets 4, and if total hps available are, say, 8, I believe the Cossack gets 1/3, rounded, for 3.
              Theseus are you sure? In 1.21f it was certainly true that if you bombarded an AI army, you would hit the unit with the most defense. If e.g. you shot him down from 4 to 1, and later on attacked him, that defender would only have 1 HP before retreating. Not the average of total HPs...

              I'm really trying to remember what I did with the 2xMI,1 MA and longbowman army of the Germans in MT V, but I can't say for sure. I mean, I don't know if the longbowman was at full health before I killed him, and I don't know how many HPs I got from him. Even if I had a few of those mixed AI armies, I think I wiped out a few of them with some nukes... no problems with stats anymore

              DeepO

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              • #8
                Hmmm, I dunno. I have a lot more experience attacking with them, or watching a strong defender in a MU Army fight repeated battles, and it always seems to me that available hps are shared.

                How about any of the other Army mavens... Zachriel?
                The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                Comment


                • #9
                  That's why I was wording it very carefully, I know you are much more experienced with armies, and certainly with mixed ones. I do like them too so have a bit experience with them, but if you tell me it is like you initially said, I will spread the word from now on

                  DeepO

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                  • #10
                    Nope, not 100% sure. I'll put up a thread on the question, and see if we catch someone's attention.
                    The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                    Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Catt,

                      Yeah, that looks like a tough one. Playing a weak civ (especially on a small map) and dealing with the mean, nasty, impi-wielding Shaka man...

                      To be honest, I didn't even notice the city spacing, but now that it's been pointed out, it's not all that bad. Closer than I would use (but then again, I'm still playing primarily on Monarch), but appropriate for your situation.

                      Theseus, even the Dark Side recognizes there are times when caution is the better part of valour. He's sandwiched between two militarists with nasty UU's, and he isn't a militarist, which makes early war harder.

                      -Arrian
                      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                      • #12
                        I wasn't entirely happy with a 5.3.2 army so I added a Mechanized Infantry to create the more balanced 7.7.2 army.

                        When I finally finish this game, I will probably try and set up a simple scenario to test the mixed army "HP sharing" issue since no one seems to have come forward with a definitive answer on this.

                        Catt

                        PS: BTW, for a guy who believes in the power of Marines, I had never seen the AI use them in an amphibious assault -- finally happened in this game. Egyptian marines almost took a weakly defended coastal city (and may have taken it had proper pre-assault bombardment been employed - there were bombardment assets within range but they failed to soften up the city for the marine assault).
                        Attached Files

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                        • #13
                          Pardon me for being ignorant, but I noticed something about the screenshots that I've never seen before (and it left me wondering if I've completely missed something as I've been playing...)

                          You say that you are running an unmodded, 1.29f game, yet I've never seen a luxury show a 'happy face' on the map. Nor have I seen what seems to be irrigationx2 (a.k.a. farms in Civ2)...can you elaborate please?

                          Zardos

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zardos
                            Pardon me for being ignorant, but I noticed something about the screenshots that I've never seen before (and it left me wondering if I've completely missed something as I've been playing...)

                            You say that you are running an unmodded, 1.29f game, yet I've never seen a luxury show a 'happy face' on the map. Nor have I seen what seems to be irrigationx2 (a.k.a. farms in Civ2)...can you elaborate please?

                            Zardos
                            Sorry - should have been clearer - the game rules / mechanics are unmodded, but I use several graphics mods: (1) the terrain graphics are mostly snoopy's; (2) mountains and irrigation (IIRC) are womok's; and (3) the luxury and strategic resource "easy identifiers" mod (indispensible in my view) is by SkankyBurns.

                            Catt

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                            • #15
                              PHEW! And here I thought that I've been missing the 'farms' on Civ 3. Imagine not knowing that and still being able to handily beat the AI on Monarch (shameless self-aggrandizing (sp?)). However, having just started Emperor, I still get my hat handed to me .

                              Zardos

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