The Quest for Deeper Strategy....

[Franses]

Coming back to the subject of Helicopters and in addition to Blake's list:
Why not alter the nr of units a helicopter can transport to 5?

This may be a change we could investigate in parallel with the other changes, I guess.

[Zachriel]

Make paratroopers invisible for one turn, so they have a chance to accomplish their mission before their inevitable destruction.

Make tanks cost more so that players will build infantry, if only to defend the tanks.

[Austin]

Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen
Austin,

I don't think a population cost will be a problemfor the AI Civ's if the irrigation tile improvement supercedes the despotism production restriction. Granted, I haven't had a chance to playtest this mod yet. (That's on the to do list for tonight)

I'd be VERY interested in seeing the results. I think this is a really good idea, I'm just afraid that the AI will self destruct.

It will dramatically show why a "mature" society like the later Roman Empire had so many, many problems finding manpower for it's armies.

One question, if you make a military unit cost population, can you then add the population back to the city?

Food production will be a little better than it is now, so growth should not be a problem. If they build a granary to boot, then they will be at size 6 in no time and pumping out units like any human player would. The first arms race will be to see who builds the Pyramids first.

Gulp! Are you screwed if you don't build it?

Part of the reason for wanting to have the pop cost is to prevent the ridiculous stacks of units that the AI Civ's have by the early Industrial Age: if it is costing them population in addition to increases unit maintenance, it will be harder to have 167 Rifleman units crossing your border. It hopefully will make it a little more reasonable, like 10-15 crossing and you will have the same to meet them in the field.

This would be nice. What would be even nicer is some way to shift the military paradigm in Civ III from "big stacks wandering about" to having to form actual lines like in real warfare. Currently with no ZOC restrictions and no supply rules the incentive is to go with a giant stack, which is grossly ahistorical.

One workaround would be if ZOC actually did serious damage when you moved past units. Give all the "gunpowder" units the ZOC ability.

Currently, does anybody know how the free ZOC shots work? Do you get one possible shot per unit in the stack, or one shot per stack?

Having increased food production by irrigation is a two edged sword though: a size 12 city on a river will starve down to size 3-4 if most of the improved tiles are pillaged... just another reason to try and take out the enemy before he gets to your city.


D.

This would be very nice as well. Is the AI smart enought to realize this, or will it sit haplessly inside it's cities and be starved?

Austin

[punkbass2000]

I think the pyramids would be overpowered if units cost pop points. You'd have to change what it does, or just remove it altogether.

[Gen.Dragolen]

After Action Report for the 1740's

Greetings All,

Well after some hard fought battles, the Egyptian Confederation has fought it's last battle on it's own soil for a while:

I've been testing the latest mod I posted last week, and have found that aside from some initial insecurity, the game still works alright, with no broken AI Civ's, just their usual belligerence and trechery. Improvements still seem to build too slowly, but that is likely because I wasn't constantly at war, and was building up the infrastructure.

And I did not get to build the Pyramids in this game: I think the American's beat me to it. It would help, but with increased food production, it's not as big an issue. I have food production on the list of things to change to a lower level. Another issue it the availability of strategic resources. Many of the civ's didn't have access to iron which lead to a shortage of modern units, and what's worse, they wouldn't trade for it.

I did notice a couple of glaring errors on my part though:
1. musketmen upgrading to cavalry ?!?
- this was the result of not changing the upgrade path from Musketeers to Rifleman.
2. espionage was a little too cheap - only 21 gold to get an agent in another civ's capital was a steal. Going to have to increase that a bit - to about 210 gold or so. Wages for treason are usually expensive, though idealistic sorts will still work for free...
3. blitz units. Despite my respect and admiration of Nathaniel Forrest's strategic genius in using cavalry, they should not get a blitz ability. In the early industrial age, when other civ's might have a few dozen pikemen holding their cities, cavalry becomes over powering.

As for some of the other issues like a population cost for most units hasn't slowed down the AI Civ's from producing lots of units. They continue to be hamstrung by their refusal to upgrade units, though that could in part be from a lack of resources, or in part from loosing most of their newer units in combat.

The shorter range on the galleys did make for one interesting effect: when I finally contacted an AI Civ's from the other continent, I was shocked to find that despite having over 30 cities, (about double the next largest AI Civ, the Americans) I was still behind in research, and had lost many of Wonder races, always by a only a turn or two.

But in inevitible fashion, the Egyptians have started out producing everyone else, and have gained the lead in the technological war at last. I have my first battleship steaming towards one of the AI Civ's that objected to my espionage activities and declared war on me.

That war has consisted of the AI Civ trying to land some cavalry units on my shore, but they ran into a couple of artillery batteries and some infantry. It wasn't a pretty site when the horses run into machineguns and artillery. But that's what happens when you face superior technology. And my response was to dispatch my first battleship to pay a visit to their major coastal cities.

Considering the time needed to play a game to conclusion, has anyone tried the mod with any other civ's yet ?

Theseus, below are most of the spreadsheets I had promised. I still want to cleanup the rest of them, and will post one with all of the units, not just the land units.

I will start working on a minimalist mod later this week using the suggestions you have posted earlier. My weekends have been entirely too busy to get any gaming done so bear with me.

D.

[Austin]

I tried out the following concept over the weekend:

- Military units cost one pop (except for air, sea and artillery type units)
- Irrigating desert, plain, and grassland gives one extra food.

This slowed the pace of the game down a LOT. It also cut down a lot on "hordes o units". The AI did not self destruct even when hard pressed in a war.

The early period for the human player is very tough.

Austin

[Gen.Dragolen]

Is that a gallopping horde I see on the horizon ?

Austin,

I am finding it very tough going now with having to wait for popluation growth to produce troops too.

And with the barbarians coming out with better units, it makes it much more difficult to pick up some spare change from their camps. In the latest round of testing, I had my capital sacked by 16 barbarian knights, when the best I could offer was a War Chariot and 2 spearmen. I really should have already built walls, but was going for maximum expansion and got nailed for it. I managed to kill 5 of them on their way in, and had just traded for a tech so the cash loss wasn't bad, but losing the 3 pop points really hurt.

I think to make the ancient age a little faster paced, I will try lowering the costs for some of the improvements and units a little less expensive. Barracks seem a little over priced and walls a little under priced considering the reources needed to build and maintain both...

As an alternative to the pop cost, I was going to try boosting the unit maintenance cost to 4 or 5 coins per turn. But that will be a major pain for the AI Civ's and their spendthrift ways...

D.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Austin
One question, if you make a military unit cost population, can you then add the population back to the city?

I ran a quick test. The answer is: yes, but only if the 'join city' flag is selected in the editor for this military unit. Note that this is a worker/engineer action flag, so I don't have a clue if the AI could handle it.

Some other things that IMO need to be tested before the 'pop cost for military units' concept can be applied (although I find it interesting):

• I suspect that the AI would instantly try to build warriors and spearmen in the beginning - no matter what their pop cost is - and therefore waste shields because of insufficient city size.
• Possible sollution if this feature cripples the AI in the early game: pop cost only for industrial/modern military units (to be specific: non-bombardment land units). Problem: Upgrading from pre-industrial to industrial units may cost money, but not pop points.
• What happens if I draft a unit that already would cost a pop point if I'd build it? Either the answer is two pop points are lost or drafting needs to be seriously rebalanced.

[punkbass2000]

I think 'units require pop-points' rule would greatly benefit expansionist. One, you get to start with a unit and two, I would be inclined to build a granary first off, as I can't build any units for a while anyway and the granary will help immensely in unit production now.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Expansionist: To make things worse, you could settle your first city. Scout around it a bit to find a good second city location, and build settler in the first location, then when your pop is nearing 2 in the first city, bring back the scout and add him and get an instant settler....Hmm the scout gambit.

[Blake]

With the drafting thing, you could make all units cheaper. The benefit is then the +2 health from building in a city with a barracks (altough this benefit would be quite minimal with +1 per age )

With the importance of irrigation, I think it would be wise to make the 'irrigate anywhere' tech come much earlier, prehaps as early as aquaduct tech.

I have found it very frustrating getting an early city going with the pop-cost, prehaps warriors could cost no pop, but not be upgradable? The cost might have to be increased to 2 to offset the no pop required....

Another idea is with the new SE, make a new 'Scout' unit for all non-expansionists, which has stats 0-0-1 and costs 1 row but no pop (the expansionist scout would also cost no pop). Tho the AI might still build warriors . But thats the AI's problem .

[Blake]

And hey, whats people thoughts on making all improvments give +2 instead of +1 (that is roads, irrigation and mines), and make forests give 3 production, and sea 3 commerce. It makes the ancient times speed by, but unfortunately almost completey negates the benefit of a early GA, in particular you get very little commerce from it.

I do think mines should be increased to +2 if irrigation is increased to +2, it would also solve the buildings taking too long to build thing....

[Austin]

I'm really liking the changes so far, certainly the easy early rush strategy is dead. Definetly brings some very hard production choices now.

Austin

[lockstep]

I did another quick test. Upgrading a unit without pop cost to a more advanced unit with pop cost will only cost money. Too bad.

Originally posted by Blake
With the drafting thing, you could make all units cheaper.

Not sure if this is sufficient to rebalance the game. Maybe the happiness penalty for drafting should be increased. (IIRC, in korn's blitz mod, which introduced pop costs for industrial/modern units, it was 30 turns instead of 20.)

The benefit is then the +2 health from building in a city with a barracks (altough this benefit would be quite minimal with +1 per age )

I'd say you have found a very good reason why a hitpoint bonus of +1 per age is a bad idea. 8 hitpoints for modern elite units vs. 5 for conscript units ... wouldn't make much of a difference in combat IMO. (That is, besides generating leaders.)

With the importance of irrigation, I think it would be wise to make the 'irrigate anywhere' tech come much earlier, prehaps as early as aquaduct tech.

While making unlimited irrigation available earlier in the game (e.g. with engineering) is a good idea in itself, it won't solve the problems of an 'irrigation yields +2 bushels' rule. Irrigating plains or desert would still be pointless in Despotism because of its tile penalty (the third food bushel, shield or commerce from a given tile is lost).

I have found it very frustrating getting an early city going with the pop-cost, prehaps warriors could cost no pop, but not be upgradable? The cost might have to be increased to 2 to offset the no pop required....

I also think that the upgrade chain should be broken between units without vs. units with pop cost (although I don't like the idea of a building menu that is even more cluttered with obsolete units), but don't see a reason for upping the cost of non-pop-units.

Another idea is with the new SE, make a new 'Scout' unit for all non-expansionists, which has stats 0-0-1 and costs 1 row but no pop (the expansionist scout would also cost no pop). Tho the AI might still build warriors . But thats the AI's problem .

And now you've really opened a can of worms.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Tougher decisions

It's good to see that my analysis is of the changes is the similar to all of yours.

With one exception: Austin, you can still manage an early age rush. I did a number on the always friendly German neighbours using 5 War Chariots around 500 BC. Lost two of them, but captured Berlin, and destroyed one vil. Loosing 40% of their villages and land, 2 settlers captured, and 2 workers given in exchange for a Peace Treaty, should make them a litte more managable.

I will have to see if I can turn that build option on for the units so they can add to the population when disbanded. It makes for an easier time with civil unrest when all you have to do it make a unit to get rid of an unhappy citizen, so you can imagine what adding all sorts of people when disbanding will do.

As an alternative to having a population cost for units, I was toying with taking away the free units and maybe increasing the unit and improvement upkeeps. Same effect, and it would greatly affect one's ability to field a large force, or even keep a large garrison. If you add in some cheaper improvements for the ancient age, it would make it an equally tough balancing act. Keep the troops and loose the improvements, and vice-versa.

Blake, I do like the idea of increasing the production from adding a mine to a tile, but I thought I had already made it a +2. I'll need to check. If production is too slow, I thing increasing the effect of a mine in a Hill or Mountain to +3 or +4 might be in order. And there are historical precidents for it: salt mines in Austria and Switzerland were mined by the Celts and the salt made it's way as far as Persia and Spain. Iron and copper mines were major concerns, too.

I've incorporated some of the other suggested changes into another .bic so I'll add in some more changes for the mines and the build option to the units and post it this afternoon.

D.