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Are civ traits balanced?

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  • Are civ traits balanced?

    OK, after playing this game for a few months I have come to the conclusion that the civ traits are surprisingly well balanced.

    When the game came out, many people were complaining that the Militaristic and Expansionist traits were weak compared to the others. But after players slowly started realizing the potential of Great leaders (the single most powerful element of the game), and after Aeson's revolutionary (at the time) tactic of resource denial using scouts, these two traits are now considered among the best.

    Religious is probably a little more powerful than the other traits, but not by much.

    The Commercial trait is another story!! This trait is so much worse than the others, I would never pick a commercial civ unless it had a really great UU (i.e. Rome, and maybe Greece)

    Why is this trait so weak? Well, first consider its benefits. You get one extra trade for cities above size 12 (not size 6 like the manual says). Big deal! That's probably a 2% to 5% increase in commerce for a city above that size, depending on the amount of commerce the city is already producing. You also get the "optimal" number of cities for corruption increased by one. ONE! This is barely noticeable (maybe 2% increase in income for a city in the middle of the pack) on small maps, and next to useless on large ones.

    Don't get me wrong. These benefits are not bad to have. They are just not nearly as good as the increased probablility of having a Great leader to build your FP, or half-price temples and one-turn anarchy.

    Part of the problem is that the commercial trait is partly meant to combat corruption. Since the release of the game, Firaxis has provided ways to reduce corruption, which diminished the value of being commercial. So even if the trait was balanced when the game was released, now it is not.

    Here are some suggestions of how to bring the commercial trait up to par with the rest:
    • Increase the optimal-number-of-cities bonus to a percentage instead of a fixed value of one. Courhouses increase that number by 25% (in addition to reducing the corruption due to distance). The commercial civ trait could increase number of optimal cities by, say, 10%. That would result in no change (1) for tiny maps, but increase to 3 or 4 for huge maps.
    • Change it so the center-square bonus commerce occurs for cities above size 6, not above size 12.
    • Give commercial civs cheaper marketplaces. (Not half price though. This would make them too strong). If not marketplaces, then perhaps harbors and banks? Anyway, since all civs (except expansionist) get cheaper buildings, why not commercial civs too? By the way, I would also decrease the cost of granaries for expansionists.


    What do you guys think? Do you agree that commercial is the worst trait in the game?
    38
    Expansionist
    42.11%
    16
    Scientific
    2.63%
    1
    Religious
    0.00%
    0
    Militaristic
    7.89%
    3
    Commercial
    44.74%
    17
    Bananistic
    2.63%
    1
    Last edited by alexman; May 20, 2002, 12:45.

  • #2
    P.S. I meant to post this in the general forum. Oops...

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    • #3
      Yes, commercial is just about worthless.

      How about automatic discounts on trades with AI civs... maybe 20%?
      The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

      Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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      • #4
        I think they're fine the way they are.

        Also, it doesn't matter too much if they're balanced or not. Being unbalanced is actually better because it's a new challenge to play as a different civ. It's like an additional difficulty setting. Since Commercial is almost useless, and Expansionist is limited on smaller maps, play the English for a challenge. Or, play a peaceful game as the Romans. If one civ has a trait combination that makes it slightly more powerful than another, then it's good for beginner players or when you decide to play a harder difficulty.

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        • #5
          I totally agree on commercial. It's garbage. The other traits, though, are well-done, and each can be very useful depending on the map size/settings and playstyle.

          -Arrian
          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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          • #6
            Also, Wall Street could be changed a bit. Easier for Com. civs to build, or different limits than other civs have.

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            • #7
              I thought the commercial bonus is +1 for size 1-6, +2 for size 7-12, and +3 for size 13+?? Maybe I have had the wrong impression...
              Also, when corruption was high commercial was good. Decreasing corruption for 1.21f made the game more enjoyable but the commercial trait weaker.

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              • #8
                Since I always play random I don't really care... But commercial seems worst to me too...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Theseus
                  How about automatic discounts on trades with AI civs... maybe 20%?
                  I'm not sure that would work in MP, but it sounds like fun, not to mention realistic.

                  Originally posted by dunk999
                  Being unbalanced is actually better because it's a new challenge to play as a different civ. It's like an additional difficulty setting.
                  I see your point. However, if a civ trait doesn't make any difference in gameplay, what's the point? Isn't it like having the civ-specific abilities turned off? I personally prefer to have cool abilities that make the civs unique, and play at a higher difficulty level.

                  Originally posted by MiloMilo
                  I thought the commercial bonus is +1 for size 1-6, +2 for size 7-12, and +3 for size 13+?? Maybe I have had the wrong impression...
                  I'm pretty sure the commercial bonus is +1 for size 13+. In addition to that, size 7-12 get +1, and size 13+ get +2 for ALL civs.

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                  • #10
                    Commercial can make your life slightly easier corruption-wise, especially on larger maps. I once participated in a French succession game on a huge map and was surprised, how productive cities were even at locations, where they would be down to one shield, one gold without being commercial. But I agree with the general line, that it's the worst trait. It could be made a bit more powerful, if it gave cheaper marketplaces and banks .But NOT half price, that would be too powerful... maybe about 2/3.

                    PS (edit): btw you forgot the industrious trait... not that I would vote for it, but for the sake of a complete list.

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                    • #11
                      That's a good idea Ralph... it would make them more comparable to scientific and religious civs.

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                      • #12
                        Wait:
                        Why isn't industrious on the poll? Forgotten? Or just generally agreed that it cannot be the worst?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sir Ralph
                          Commercial can make your life slightly easier corruption-wise, especially on larger maps.
                          That's exactly the oposite of what I would expect. Commercial civs increase the number of "optimal" cities by 1. For a huger map, that's 33 instead of 32. Almost not detectable. On the other hand, for tiny maps the increase is 13 from 12, which is very noticeable.

                          I once participated in a French succession game on a huge map and was surprised, how productive cities were even at locations, where they would be down to one shield, one gold without being commercial.
                          This was before 1.21f, right? The increased effectiveness of couthouses and police stations have made the commercial-civ benefits even less noticeable since then.

                          btw you forgot the industrious trait... not that I would vote for it, but for the sake of a complete list.
                          That's what happens when you stay awake all night playing civ!
                          Yes, Industrious belongs up there with the best of them.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alexman
                            This was before 1.21f, right? The increased effectiveness of couthouses and police stations have made the commercial-civ benefits even less noticeable since then.
                            Yes, it started, when 1.16f was new, and went till 1.17f. As for the dimension of the described effect: You probably noticed the word "slightly" in my previous post. I just noticed in that game, that the border between 2-shield-cities and 1-shield-cities was fairly far from our palace, without spending too much attention to this. And the difference between 1 shield and 2 shields is 100%, hence noticeable.

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                            • #15
                              I agree that commercial is the worst trait, and was increadibly weakened down with the new patch.

                              I like the idea of having reduced cost for marketplace (2/3 of the cost seems fair to me).
                              the discount in trading would not help since the AIs trading between each other is still much different in confront of Human - Ai trading. And in MP would not help.

                              Plus I think that the normal bonuses plus cheaper Marketplace (and maybe banks too) is enough to make this trait as desirable as the other

                              Saluti
                              "Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else.
                              The trick is the doing something else."
                              — Leonardo da Vinci
                              "If God forbade drinking, would He have made wine so good?" - Cardinal Richelieu
                              "In vino veritas" - Plinio il vecchio

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