AI cheats and strategies to counter them

[Aeson]

In my current game I have been using renegotiating of peace treaties to extort cities from the AI. When negotiating with the Russians, I was consistantly able to get 2-3 cities every 20 turns. All of these cities were size 1, no expanded cultural borders, with no visible resources. During one of the negotiations, I was hoping to get Batum. At the time it was size 1, as was Tutsi. No one had even gotten into the Middle ages yet, but while the Russians were more than willing to part with Tutsi (actually the city that was near Tutsi, I moved and renamed it) "they would never accept such a deal" was their response for Batum in the same exchange. Considering the visible value of the two cities, Tutsi was by far the better city site, as you can see from the picture. Tutsi is even built on another cow, which you cannot see. Now I have just researched Gunpowder, as you can see Batum is right next to a source of Saltpeter. There are a few other cities that weren't possible to demand from the AI. I bet that later on they end up having an "unseen" resource too. At least Batum was built in the right spot for my pattern... I was going to hit the Russians once I got to Military Tradition anyways.

[Psycho_Mantis]

What do you mean the AI knows your unit disposition?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Aeson, this proves what I'd suspected from the start, that the AI knows the terrain before it sees it. A similar anecdote: I've started my third game on the Marla map - tho I know world geography, I did not seek out the resources before playing. After map exchanges and middle ages, I noticed that the exact same tile in NW Canada was settled. Twice by the americans, once by the Iroquois. This is far from an appealing site at first glance, and far from where they had settled up to that point. I pop open the editor, look at the map, et voila! Uranium and coal next to it. (or was it aluminum?)

In one of the games, I was the Aztecs. I exiled the americans to the tundra. In peace negotiations, they were willing to part with everything - gold and all towns - except that one town with the as-yet-unseen resources.

[Psycho_Mantis]

Yeah, it does look like the computer cheats...

I still dont know what you mean about it knowing your unit disposition, though.

[bsklepzig]

Re: So that's it then

Originally posted by pchang
... and 1 possible cheat (AI knows where resources are before they have the tech). The possible cheat does not appear to be a real one. One would think that the AI would build out its road network so that the "new" resources would automatically be included when they appear, but this is not the case.

pchang,

My stories, Aeson's story and picture and Marquis' story shows that this is in fact a cheat. They see the resource before the tech allows it and they settle cities to gain access down the road. Trading behavior (Aeson & Maquis) and battle behavior (my story) are affected by their knowledge of the the someday value of the site. Your assumption that they don't build roads doesn't show this isn't a cheat. From the AI perspective, why build the road before it's needed? (In my Egypt example with with the three eventual aluminum cities 10 tiles into the wilderness, they had in fact built roads anyway.)

Ben

[Harovan]

Yes, this was also mentioned in the thread http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40548 (post by TheDarkside 24-01-2002 15:42 GMT) and in my and some other replies later on. Note, that in TheDarkside's even the road to the iron was built.

[barefootbadass]

Originally posted by vmxa1
The use of "active" to check trade status requires contact, this should not be. We should be able to check on our own trades with out contacting the AI. A busines would look at its own auditors or contracts, not call the other company to get this type of data. Since they info on contact screen does not require any special gathering, it should be available on my trade advisor screen without contact. I want to know if they have any money before I waste time contacting them.

That would be good, maybe in the trade screen where it shows you are trading for 'fine chinese furs' or something, it could show how many turns the deal has left. In fact I'm not sure that this feature isn't in the trade screen, I'll check tonight, its one of those things like the military screen to find out the government type of a civ that isn't exactly documented that you had to stumble on or read about in the forums.

I've always been able to renegotiate if the ai contacts me saying they don't want to continue the deal. If they trade it to someone else(after it has expired) it just tells me that I've lost my supply with no contact. If you are contacted when this happens and it has been traded then it is probably a bug.

[soxs]

AI Limiting player growth at start of game

From the few games I have played on a Extremly Large Map with big islands and with 8 civs, the 6 of the 8 civs get there own island and the 7th gets stuck with me on my small island. Any one else noticed that or did I just get unlucky a few times?

[bsklepzig]

I'd count that as a good thing ...

You get to trade techs before Mapmaking allows Galleys and have a handy local civ for an ancient era war (trains elites and eliminates a competitor early).

I'd rather have a local buddy for the reasons described above than be alone and get messages about other civs building Wonders I don't have the Tech for yet ...

Ben

[Unregistered]

Well, Soren did say in one of the chats that the ai can 'see' the whole map, including your troop dispositions. I would assume this also includes strategic resources, although he didn't mention them specifically. He went on to say that if they can't 'see' the map, then all they do is sit where they are. So giving them this 'cheat' was necessary to make them competitive with not only the human player, but themselves. Given all the natural advantages we as people have, I don't have a problem with it as a 'cheat'.

As one poster on another thread put it (sorry, I've forgotten who) "Playing the ai is like beating up on the retarded!" And you know what? He's absolutely right. Which is why I'll probably be putting civIII down soon & moving on to something else. Maybe I'll try again when a pbem option becomes available. (I don't know that I'd like realtime multiplayer, turns take too long & schedualing time w/ people to play is almost impossible for me)
Anyway,

[Willem]

Well I have to question this idea that the AI can see resources and builds near them. I just had a game that in one area, there was 3 resources within a couple of squares of each other, close enough that 1 city could have grabbed all 3, and the Japanese hadn't built anything there yet, though they were nearby. I also had another game where there were a number of Saltpeter resources, but I managed to beat him to it. It didn't look like he was even trying to get to those spots.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Willem
Well I have to question this idea that the AI can see resources and builds near them.

I agree.

The Greeks populated all around this iron. It took a few turns, but I walked a settler over and took it.

[Aeson]

I dont think the AI actively settles 'unseen' resources, just that they know they are there. When the AI calculates the value of the city site, the resources seem to be factored into that worth, whether the AI has the technology to see them or not. This fact actually works for the player once it is understood. I can now wage effective wars for unseen resources, just by playing off the AI's valuation of any given city. I may not be able to tell whether it is rubber or coal or any other specific resource, but I know something of value is hidden there. I just have to use the AI as my 'eyes'.

[solo]

One question for Willem and Zachriel:

Did the AI have the technology yet for those resources it did not go for? In my experience so far, they have zeroed in on resources, but now that I think about it, they might have had the technology to "see" them at the time of zeroing activity.

Aeson's experience suggests they know where unseen resources are, too, but it may just be a coincidence due to the fact that smaller CivIII maps result in all areas being setlled fairly quickly into the game. However Aeson IS having a lot of success by using the theory that the AI do know in advance where resources are.

Another factor to consider is the scarcity of a resource. The AI may not bother about an unseen one or bunch, if they already have their own copy from another tile in their possession.

One thing for sure, is that more evidence needs to be collected while playing games, before forming any conclusions.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by solo
One question for Willem and Zachriel:

Did the AI have the technology yet for those resources it did not go for?

Well from a look at my picture posted above, I see a Greek Phalanx near the bottom. They must have had Iron, so my example may not be very helpful. They may have devalued the iron as they already had a source.

Good points, solo.