AI cheats and strategies to counter them

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Feephi
The day after the patch was released, several people had discovered this tech-trading problem and Soren acknowledged in a thread that this was "a major bug". :

Why is this a "bug" again? It sounds reasonable that a Civ would keep a backdoor channel open to other Civs during negotiations. In other words, if we give the Russians the technology of SDI, they certainly could secretly trade it to China.

[Heliodorus]

In all the games I've played, I've NEVER been able to get the computer to trade a strategic resource to me, even if they had 3 sources of it. Maybe I'm too warlike, I don't know. But it's been very disappointing to realize that the only way I'm going to be able to get them is to take them by force. I can trade for luxuries, but never strategics. It's another reason why Civ3 is currently shelved and I'm playing tombraider.

[Brundlefly]

Why is this a "bug" again? It sounds reasonable that a Civ would keep a backdoor channel open to other Civs during negotiations. In other words, if we give the Russians the technology of SDI, they certainly could secretly trade it to China.

In a turn-based game like Civ III, each civ gets to perform a series of tasks, one of them is tech-trading, during their turn ONLY. The point of doing things that way is that you have the luxury of having this "backdoor channel" you talk about -- during YOUR turn only. The problem is, this bug allows the AI to have a "backdoor" during both its turn AND your turn. That's not fair and it unbalances the game! If this is a "feature" and not a bug, then if Russia comes to me during its turn and sells me SDI, I should be allowed to immediately trade SDI to other civs before the AI resumes its turn.


If anyone else can confirm, especially Firaxis, that this bug is somehow related to the use of autosaved games, please post this confirmation. Thanks!

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Feephi
That's not fair and it unbalances the game!

There are lots of unbalanced advantages given to the AI, in an attempt to overcome its lack of "real" intelligence, and people are still able to beat the AI, even with all these advantages. I would contend that the exploit of selling techs to the AIs for enormous sums of gold made the game too easy for the human player. For me personally, the reduced tech whoring is one of the best features in the patch.

[Brundlefly]

I would contend that the exploit of selling techs to the AIs for enormous sums of gold made the game too easy for the human player. For me personally, the reduced tech whoring is one of the best features in the patch.

Well maybe they can put a flag in the editor for you to check to allow this "feature" when you play.

The term "tech whoring" must have been coined by someone with nothing to say trying to sound otherwise. It makes no sense. If I have a tech to trade, what's wrong with working my best deal with each civ that needs it? I expect that Firaxis, in the interest of balanced play, coded the AI to trade the same way. How do you know the AI doesn't do the same thing? The trade value of the tech decreases as the number of civs that own it increases so you don't get as much value with each subsequent trade of that tech. Whatever you accumulate in exchange for trading that tech is offset by the fact that you just made a bunch of other civs stronger by giving them your tech. How does that make things unfair or unbalanced?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Feephi

The term "tech whoring" must have been coined by someone with nothing to say trying to sound otherwise. It makes no sense. If I have a tech to trade, what's wrong with working my best deal with each civ that needs it?

How does that make things unfair or unbalanced?

Becuase the AI is really, really dumb when it comes to trading and can be easily taken advantage of.

E.g. I came across a civ who wanted to do a straight swap of World maps. At first I was going to accept, but then I thought I'd see what he would offer me in negotiations. Not only did I get his World map, but also Mapmaking and 530 gold. With a trading instinct like that, it's like taking candy from a baby!

[Ironikinit]

As someone mentioned in this thread, you can combat the AI civs trading on your turn by picking the right order to make trades. See to it that the others don't have anything to trade with whoever you trade with first.

I've noticed the resource trading too, where it shows up on the trade advisor screen but when I go to the diplomacy screen, it's not there.

I really don't mind it much, but a better solution would've been nice (not that I can think of a better solution offhand). Apparently, it's not a bug BTW, just a sweet deal for the AI.

http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/civ3/christmas-chat-1.shtml

[draz2] is the trading tech bug being fixed? where comp trades in your turn?

[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I don't think so. I think Soren likes it that way...though I'm not sure

Vague, but that's what the man said. Sort of.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Another anecdote about the city swapping. Last night as the French, my swarm of bad guys followed some settlers about. As they settled, I renegotiated peace, demanding the just settled town. It was granted. Tho escorted by a horseman, I got a musketeer as a defender - no town was connected to my saltpeter (or any resource, for that matter), and I was the only one with gunpowder.

Two cultural absorptions gave the same result, tho one was connected to my saltpeter.

Perhaps certain techs trigger what type of defender you get...

[Aeson]

It certainly is not a side effect of save/reload. The game I started playing last night I had it happen to me several times while I never reloaded once. I ended up destroying several AI for "unfair" trade practices.

I can see the AI deciding that "ok, one of the others is going to have it, lets trade it to everyone" before trading something to the player. The problem is that the player can't reserve its own right to trade their own discoveries to everyone else first. This just forces the player to be more agressive militarily to get an advantage over the AI. I don't mind it too much, as it gives me a motive for conquest other than "they are in the way". I can see how it would be very frustrating on peaceful games though. It just makes tech research that much more worthless. As it is, after Horseback Riding is obtained, there really isn't an efficient reason to continue research. "Efficient" in this case being "how best to ensure victory".

[Willem]

Originally posted by Aeson
I can see how it would be very frustrating on peaceful games though. It just makes tech research that much more worthless. As it is, after Horseback Riding is obtained, there really isn't an efficient reason to continue research. "Efficient" in this case being "how best to ensure victory".

That's just plain silly. It gives you an advantage just being able to start producing a particular unit before everyone else. By the time they're able to, you could have a few dozen of them in the field already. Personally, I don't trade a tech if it gives me a foot up on my opponents. It's to my advantage if I can produce Swordsman while everyone else has to rely on Archers for instance, so I'll try to hold on to that advantage as long as I can. And if you're holding on to a tech they really want, there's no way they're going to be inclined to declare war on you.

And there are other ways to "ensure victory" than military conquest you know. The space race victory for instance means you have to stay ahead of everyone else so you can be the first to start building parts.

[solo]

Having completed a game without using autosaves, or without reloading named saves (except to continue the game on another day), I still observed suspected instances of AI trades during my turn, but without any reloading, this could not be verified.

I agree with DaveV that the game was improved by reducing the amount of tech whoring and concur that the AI needs a few sneaky options unavailable to the human in order to compete. Personally, I like having a some AI tricks, as it can be a challenge to identify how they happen and to discover ways they can be circumvented. However, without a way of countering the way the AI deprived me of aluminum as detailed in the first post, all the work going into my OCC spaceship game would have been for nothing. Without a remedy, I would have been dead set against AI trades during my turn.

Heliodorus, I agree that your earlier aggressiveness towards the AI caused it to horde extra strategic resources, because in games where I have maintained the peace, I have always been able to trade for an extra resource that I could afford.

Tech trading is part of the game, and in OCC games at deity level, one has to leverage this as much as possible to get ahead of and surpass the AI on the tech tree, mainly because there are not enough viable alternatives for competing with one city at that level. However, the game could probably be improved further by reducing even more, the amount paid or received when trading techs. Amounts are often still out of proportion to what they are for other trades such as luxuries and resources.

One thing I have noticed about whoring techs, is that AI sneak attacks are more likely if you bleed them for a huge amount of gold/turn when vending a tech. If you can not afford going to war, (and war is the greatest folly for an OCC player on deity!), beware of AI you take advantage of in this way!

[Aeson]

I said the best way to ensure victory, not the only way. If an AI Civ has no cities, they cannot possibly beat the player to any victory condition. The longer the AI is allowed to progress peacefully, the better its chances of competing for any given victory condition. "Backdoor Trading" just further weakens the usefulness of gaining a tech advantage, as it can't be relied upon to maintain a power advantage. This is more apparent on the higher difficulty levels.

It's to my advantage if I can produce Swordsman while everyone else has to rely on Archers for instance

I was just using Horsemen as my prefered unit, thus Horseback Riding as the required advancement. If you want to use Swordsmen, just substitute Iron Working. After Swordsmen or Horsemen, there are no more Ancient era units to take advantage of, other than catapults in the case you choose Swordsmen. That means that 2 or 3 techs gets you the best unit until Knights roll around in the Middle ages. By that time they can be used to cripple several AI, while keeping up in the tech race through extortion. I prefer Horsemen because they become Knights near the beginning of the Middle ages, allowing the same strategy to be applied in that era as well.

And if you're holding on to a tech they really want, there's no way they're going to be inclined to declare war on you.

The AI is actually more willing to declare war if you have something they want and won't trade it to them.

[Aeson]

Solo -

I've been having the worst luck on my OCC games. 3 times so far I've made it in a good position to the Modern Age, and each time there was either no Uranium or no Aluminum available for trade. Also I've been beaten to Newtons by 1 turn a couple times, just bad planning on my part there though.

Originally posted by solo
Having completed a game without using autosaves, or without reloading named saves (except to continue the game on another day), I still observed suspected instances of AI trades during my turn, but without any reloading, this could not be verified.

One way to verify it is to check all the AI before trading anything. Very often when trading a Tech that none of the AI has, right after the trade is made, several of the AI will have it. I've also seen this happen with maps and communications. These trades can be avoided somewhat by the order of trading, but it takes a lot more clicking to check who has what to trade. Even then the AI will occasionally "give" the traded discovery to everyone else for basically free.

[Encomium]

The AI has ocean-going galleys - why there is so little for us to explore.

The AI gives free techs to AI civs if I get too far ahead with my science. I saw a FOUR TECH LEAD early in the game passed in just fourteen turns when I found myself BEHIND by a tech!!!


FIRAXIS, if you patch nothing else patch the cheating. STOP IT!! I want a SMARTER AI, not one that cheats and breaks its own rules while doing illogical things.

[Ironikinit]

The AI tech trading on your turn thing is more common on higher levels. More evident, anyway. I was playing on emperor and it got a bit frustrating how civs I didn't even know were in contact with each other traded techs.

Ecomium, I don't think your approach is helping. And it's so obnoxious that I don't want to believe your statements.