Lumberjacking - oh my

[Venger]

Is this what the game has come to ALREADY? A tedious gameplay exploit to get around the poor design and mechanics of the release? Oh boy...

That I can see you guys moving 80 workers around the map planting and logging makes me wonder 1) is this game even fun for you anymore and 2) WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY GAMEPLAY TEST THIS GAME!?!? Anyone driven to this tedious tactic after only days of owning the game because they cannot build anything in a city due to the corruption should ask for a rebate from Infogrames...

Piteous...

Venger

[Velociryx]

Hmm....

While I don't disagree with you, lumberjacking is hardly a new strategy.

It was not as widely used in SMAC as it has been discussed here for a few reasons, one of which is certainly the differences in effect re: Effie drain vs. Civ3 Corruption (and another was simply the fact that SMAC's Terraformers NEVER ran out of things to do), but the fact is....if I'm using it and you're not, I WILL outproduce you, even if corruption is fixed.

That's just math.

And, if I outproduce you (assuming we're approximately equal as players go), odds are good that I'll beat you.

I think what we're seeing here is more an attempt to cope with a level of AI aggression that we've not seen before in this series than an attempt to fix corruption (which, by the way, I'm in the minority....I don't happen to feel that it's broken per se, but support a late-game reduction in it representing technology and cultural breakthrus....for the ancient era, middle ages, and part of the industrial era tho, I'm all for it just as it is!).

As to the strategy itself, I *frequently* make limited use of it, even in cities with GOOD production....after getting myself out of Despotism, it's a good way to build up some shields to make paying for a rush with gold cheaper.

Just my two cents.

-=Vel=-

[barefootbadass]

Vel is right, lumberjacking is a powerful strategy that would be used even if corruption were manage-able. I do it in cities with low corruption even if they aren't working on wonders. When MP comes out this will likely become a necessary thing to be competitive(better get your fingers in shape )

Anyway, this is not a problem IMO and if you are going to keep complaining you should go back to the general forum and complain there with the masses that want the game to fit their strategies rather than adjusting their strategy to fit the game.

Hang on, a patch is coming(hopefully soon) that will reduce corruption. I think Firaxis's playtesting got cut short along with production of MP because Infogrames wanted them to rush production(heh, unhappy customers for 20 turns I guess). At least I think I read that somewhere once.

[solo]

Like incremental rush-buying in CivII, lumberjacking is a tedious, yet useful trick. In fact, I find it less tedious than incremental rush-buying.

True, it would be better to have a game design where such laborious tactics were not available, but until then, there is no better way to build up totally corrupt cities, so we do it to get by.

[inca911]

Not in MP....

Like most other sane people, I will play Multiplayer (MP) under the caveat that lumberjacking is strictly prohibited. I have no desire to hold lumberjacking contests instead of Civ3 contests. If you want to do lumberjacking vs. the AI, go for it, but I won't want any time wasted with the whole mess in MP. Lumberjacking is just like the food caravan trick of Civ2....

[Velociryx]

::shrug:: that's cool, and I can see the how and whys behind the argument.

What....amuses(?) me is this:

Everybody who plays Civ-style games KNOWS that the devil is in the details and that it's all about micromanagement.

* No one automates workers. Ever.

* Few, if any even use autopathing for thier units

* No one uses Governors. Ever.

* Diehards, ever anxious to get the MOST out of each city micromanage to the WORKER LEVEL every city they have, every turn in MP.

....but they'll draw the line at chopping down trees....

-=Vel=-
(and btw, I'm NOT picking on Inca, or anybody else who is against lumberjacking in MP....I realize there are lots of people who feel that way....I've just never understood it, in light of all the other micromanagement that goes on)

-V.

[Skanky Burns]

I use limited lumberjacking to increase the production of newly built, highly corrupt cities to save me some money rather than rush-buying. Once these cities can produce enough on their own, no more lumberjacking for them.

What i dont get about your post is this comment:

but I won't want any time wasted with the whole mess in MP.

Doesnt using lumberjacking make production faster, so rather than barracks in 20 year, you can get them in say, 4 years??

[liupang]

Originally posted by Velociryx
What....amuses(?) me is this:

Everybody who plays Civ-style games KNOWS that the devil is in the details and that it's all about micromanagement.

* No one automates workers. Ever.
-V.

I Do automate workers---in late game that is

* Few, if any even use autopathing for thier units
-V.

That was because autopathing was bugged. Did you tried autopathing in Civ3? It's mostly useable now and I use it all the time.

* No one uses Governors. Ever.

-V.

Again, it's still bugged. Not works well. I believe the loadable queue in SMAC mostly solved the problem, but then, in civ3 , it's a step backward---what's the good if I can only have one "template" saved and load?

* Diehards, ever anxious to get the MOST out of each city micromanage to the WORKER LEVEL every city they have, every turn in MP.

....but they'll draw the line at chopping down trees....
-V.

I think we have to draw a line here on lumberjacking(and the incremental buying in civ2) because at least micromanaging has use of intelligence involoved. (while lumberjacking /incremental buying only involves brainless repetition---and I think that's what we as a Strategy gamer should be against.

[Harm]

I have yet to see the need to lumberjack. I merely edited the game and allowed Police Stations and Barracks to reduce corruption. Plus I would find the constant build forest/cut down forest as tedious as the constant single mouse clicking of the Diablo series.

I, myself, see it as an exploit; especially since the AI doesn't know the trick. However the AI has a few tricks that I can't master either; like omnipotence.

[fanatic civver]

I think its a lot easier paying gold for buildings, unless you're building the forbidden palace

Workers also cost 1 gold a turn under democracy. You'll save a few turns by lumberjacking, but if you've got lots of big cities and a fat income then lumberjacking's just an unneccessary pain in the arse.

Change to communism and use forced labor on those captured cities. You need to get rid of all the citizens anyway because of the civil disorder! Note I haven't tried this myself

[Capt Dizle]

I am playtesting the lumberjack option strictly for use to build cultural improvements in border mega corruption cities.

Its a lot of work for cities that end up with +10 culture per turn, +1 commerce and +1 shield.

I think of them as border bumpers.

If they are going to leave this in as a viable option please God give us a lumberjacking hot key.

It's mind numbing.

[Venger]

Good to see some thoughts on it. Personally, I see it as an exploit that while not quite cheating, is working so around the margins of a system as to render it unenjoyable - it's been mentioned that workers cost 1 gold per turn - is this correct? Because that would make it a little less attractive...

I got better things to do with my life than hit plant and clear around every city 8 times a turn...

Personally, I'd just as soon they fix corruption and courthouse effects and make lumberjacking moot...

Venger

[dnassman]

The automating workers issue I have found to be buggy. In civ 2, although it was very occasional, when you would automate workers and if pollution would arise, engineers would automatically go and try and clean that up first. So far in civ3 when I have automated workers and pollution has come about I thought that I wouldn't have to worry about it because my workers would take care of it as their first priority. After watching my automated workers moving all over the place none of them went to clean up pollution. This happened next few turns as well until I was feed up and had to do it myself. Very annoying. Any ideas?

[Monoriu]

Re: Lumberjacking - oh my

Originally posted by Venger
Is this what the game has come to ALREADY? A tedious gameplay exploit to get around the poor design and mechanics of the release? Oh boy...

That I can see you guys moving 80 workers around the map planting and logging makes me wonder 1) is this game even fun for you anymore and 2) WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY GAMEPLAY TEST THIS GAME!?!? Anyone driven to this tedious tactic after only days of owning the game because they cannot build anything in a city due to the corruption should ask for a rebate from Infogrames...

Piteous...

Venger

1. I do not use lumberjacking. Yes I personally consider it a cheat and I hope they'll do something about it in the next patch.

2. However, I DO move 80 workers (sometimes more) around manually to do things and yes the game is still very fun for me.

3. I never automate anything in civ games. No governors, no autoworkers, no autopath, and yes I often check my cities to make sure that the city workers are on the optimal tiles. In fact I have never tried the autoworker thing......but the first time I saw 10 AI workers rushed to irrigate a single tile (they moved across my empire to an isolated city of theirs) I knew I was right......

4. Why does it bother you so much? MP is not out, until then, if you don't like it, don't use it. However I do agree that they need to do something (maybe option to turn off?) when MP comes out.

[Velociryx]

Good points all around.

The reason I don't see it as an exploit though, is for the reason already stated. There is a limit, even under Despotism/Communism to the number of "Free" units an Empire has at its disposal, and of course, under Republic and Democracy, the limit is zero. Anything above your freebie limit, and you pay one gold a turn for each unit you have in the field.

Clearly then, you're not getting something for nothing in the case of lumberjacking. One way or the other, you're paying for it (1gold per turn, or the workers in question are occupying one of your free slots and you're paying 1g per turn for your troops).

The other reason is this: In SMAC MP, one of the mainstays of the game is the lowly Supply Crawler, which is put onto target tiles to harvest X, where X is the value of one resource type that the tile produces. This is merely an abstraction of the lumberjacking process (given that a Former's work is never quite done in SMAC, which makes it unlikely in the extreme that Formers would ever be relegated to traditional lumberjacking duties.

The argument that it is mindlessly repetitive is a good one, and probably the major reason it's not seeing widespread and consistent use.

Nonetheless, there IS an automation feature "auto-deforest" or whatever it is called.....easy enough to put a few workers on it and let them have at the trees (which most players cut down at one point or another simply because running a rail system over a forest nets you no additional gain.....you've gotta be rid of the trees and terraform it to gain a rail benefit.

-=Vel=-