Wonders that are too powerful? Not powerful enough?

[SandMonkey]

I don't feel like looking up the history, but was it necessary for the Colossus to be built on the ocean when it was built however many odd thousands of years ago? I mean, i can see how the Lighthouse would obviously have to be built on the ocean (a big fat DUH right there), but just because the Colossus was built at the mouth of Rhodes' harbor doesn't necessarily mean that's the only place it would convievably be built, does it? I honestly don't know the history of the Colossus, or the motives for building it, so if I am totally wrong I would appreciate someone telling me.

I only mention this because if you're going to build a SSC, it's now a great more difficult seeing as you have to either build it on a coast, or just not use the Colossus. Obviously if you start off dead center in the middle of a huge continent, the choice is simple, but otherwise...

[kalishatra]

art of war? free barracks? big deal. all my relevant cities already have barracks, and if you're playing a military civ (the sort that should most need this wonder) then it does even less.

Leonardo's and Smith's are both Ok, depending on what you are doing. I usually like upgrading large armies, so Leonardo's works. However, in non military games it sucks.

My fave is the Sistine Chapel, esp. if I'm playing a religious civ . Then you just plop a cathedral in a city for less than the cost of a library and get +6 contented citizens. velly nice. and great for culture.

Yeah, Great Wall is too weak, unless you're playing on the highest barbarian level, maybe.

and does Heroic Epic even work? I've never gotten a leader yet (i think) after building it.

[ginzuishou]

I miss the effects of Adam Smiths Trading Co . It played a pretty big part in my civ2 strategy since I always prefer a peaceful, economic end to my games. It usually provided the basis for a successful future Democracy that had the capacity to support expensive improvements and still rake in the cash. I'm really glad they added in the Wall Street Minor Wonder because it makes up for Smith's losses. I also miss Handel's "Arrival of the queen of Sheba"...

[Zurai001]

The wonders I always build are, in no particular order:

Pyramids
JS Bach
Sun Tzu
Sistine Chapel

For a culture game, or when I have a very large science city, I'll also grab Shakespeare's Theatre and Newton's U.

Wonders that I really don't care for, also in no real order:

Hoover Dam (Hydro Plants suck)
Leonardo's Workshop (money's too easy to make)
Copernicus and SETI (Impossible to get 1 tech/turn now)
Great Wall
UN (I'm really starting to hate the Diplo victory)

[Arrian]

My favorites, in no particular order:

Colossus (if I have a coastal city w/production enough to build it)
Copernicus'
Newton
Sistine
Bach
Hoover
Great Library
SETI

That being said, I will build any wonder if I can, if for no other reason than to deny the benifits/culture to the AI.

If you can get the Colossus, Cops, Newton, and eventually SETI together, great. Usually, however, I end up w/ Cops, Newton and SETI in my capital (minimal corruption, usually on a river).

Sistine Chapel and Bach are KEY for happiness. Great Library can be a real boon early on, filling in techs you've ignored.

Adam Smith's has been toned down, but then again it was pretty damn powerful in CIV2 (I would build it and then proceed to buy the AI empires). I still build it, of course.

Hoover is pretty obvious. Cure for Cancer is always nice, but a late-game add-on kinda nice. Universal Suffrage is certainly useful - I think I've built that one every time... but I try to keep my wars short anyway.

I've always disliked Manhattan, but if you don't build it, they probably will. The UN kinda sucks - but I build it, so I don't lose. I wouldn't mind having Sun Tzu or the Pyramids, but I'm usually building something else. The Great Wall? Whatever, take it. Leo's isn't worth it now, and the Great Lighthouse is only good in certain situations. Longevity just boosts your cities to untenable population so they starve.

-Arrian

[YahMon]

Two of the most useful wonders in my current game are
- Magellan's Voyage
-Smith's Trading company

Magellans allows me to dominate the seas and catch up with enemy transports or let my wounded ships escape which is crucial since I own South and Central America as well as Australia.

Smith's Trading company allows me to avoid the maintenance cost of all my banks, harbors, airports, and marketplaces which lets me devote that money to tech and has allowed me to finally move ahead of the AI.

I'm playing at Regent level on the standard World Map with 8 civs

[eMarkM]

I have a question about UN as I see lots of people complaining about diplo victory. If you build the UN and become Sec-Gen, does this mean you can deny the vote for world leader indefinitely? Can someone override you and force a vote despite you being in possession of the wonder? What are the rules that govern this. The manual and Civpeadia are unclear.

I've only just now made it to modern era so I don't know. I built the UN and said no to the vote as I didn't think I was in good graces with other Civs that I'd been thrashing militarily. Can I always do this?

If you have the final say in when a vote can take place, than I would say UN is the most important wonder. In his chat, Soren also said this was the most important wonder. If you let the peaceful Civ that everyone loves more than you build it and they go to a vote, than it's likely lights out for you no matter how dominant you are. If you own it and have no chance at diplo victory you can just delay it forever if you're always allowed to deny a vote. That's HUGE and makes the control of UN pretty essential with diplo victory turned on.

e

[pchang]

Heroic Epic - is it worth it?
You have to use up a leader to build an army and win a battle before you can build this. But then, you should get more leaders later. Hmmm......

[Usually Insane]

I'm plowing into the egyptians, after plowing through the romans and greeks. I have gotten two leaders, now, that might not be so bad, but it feels like they have become unrealistically needed (armies and wonders) and damn awful hard to get.

now I have the heroic epic, but I can't get my units to elite, the stubbornly remain in veteran mode, however many enemies the pound to dust.

[monkspider]

I plan on creating a mod soon that alters the strengh of these wonders.
For starters, I am considering raising the culture Shakespeare's theatre gives you to 12.
What do you guys think?

[Master Marcus]

I definitely prefer the Pyramids over the Great Library. You can always negociate most of the techs you don't have next to powerful AIs until you can keep up with them. On the other hand granaries are of course useful but without Pyramids can be time consuming to build in distant cities. If I miss Sistine Chapel, I go at all costs for Bach's even without a cultural game in mind.

I agree to say that most of the wonders are "wonderfully" calibrated, none of them are overly powerful to disturb the game's balancing, but they are still useful. Quite refreshing next to some overpowered SMAC's projects...

[nato]

eMarkM, when you build the UN you get a pop up window asking if you want to hold the vote now. If you say no it keeps popping up every turn. I don't know how long it waits if a vote is held and no one wins.

If you say yes, you get asked to vote for a person or abstain.

The one time I did this 4 voted for me, 2 for Joan. Then you get a "You Win" pop up window and the game is over.

I really felt it was flat and anticlimatic ... but then I never liked the space ship win either. I turned off diplomatic win after this.

[eMarkM]

I really felt it was flat and anticlimactic

Just a pop up for diplo win? Does sound kinda anti-climatic. Eh, a wins a win, I guess. Certainly turning Diplo victory off is one way to go, but I like to play with the defaults and have that option open. I like the dimension it adds to play. Makes you think twice about how you treat other Civs with the thought of losing a future UN vote. If you played well enough to have the other Civs vote for you, that's an accomplishment, despite the cheesy ending.

If you have Diplo victory turned on, there's no question the UN is one of the most important wonders, if not THE most important. I mean, what other wonder, if built by someone else, will cause you to lose the whole game just like that?? Sheesh. No other wonder has this kind of power. You can't let it fall into AI Civs hands as the testimonials on this site can attest. They build it, they vote, you lose. You just gotta have the UN in order to filibuster on the vote if you know you'll get outvoted. Better have a Leader ready when you discover Fission to rush this one. It's a must have.

e

[monkspider]

Diplomatic victory seems fairly unpopular amongst most civers, so another change I'm considering is adding Colossus trade bonus in my proposed mod.

[HunterAssasin]

Monkspider if you can do this try making the diplomatic victory like SMACs, each civ get votes in proportion to their entire population and whoever get 75% of the vote wins, If you lose or someone really hates you and you won they get to say they don't accept it.

You go to war with all the other civs combined into one but if you strong enough you might be able to beat em, it's better then just four votes for this guy three for you game over(happened to, pissed me off so I reloaded and didn't build the UN, proceded with WWI )