The Romans, the Early Game, and C3C

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Alright. So I'm back to my plan of winning as every civ - yes, all 31, in the epic game on Monarch level.

Don't laugh. I switched to Monarch from Regent right before C3C came out and won two games easily, leading me to think it would be the switch to Emperor that made things really difficult.

But after playing Roman game after Roman game over this last week, I've come to the conclusion that the tactics I relied on might be less reliable now, or at least, must be implemented in a new way.

For a brief recap, the winning strat I had found in the "old game" (PTW) was: Build a shunbungaload of veteran warriors. Save about ~1000 gold. Upgrade to legionaries and use those bad boys to conquer ~3 neighbors, while slowly phasing in horsemen, knights and cavalry. The only ancient era wonders that really mattered to me were the Great Library, which always brought me about 4 techs and allowed me to eventually get in the lead, and the HG, which wasn't necessary but very, very nice indeed.

Eventually (generally too late) I would switch out of despotism, and the game would be more or less "won". Of course, I fought all those great cavalry wars, just to watch my empire grow.

Well, now things seem changed. First of all, there's ALL those wonders. Where does one start? A number of the new wonders are good - I finally built the Statue of Zeus and was VERY pleased with the AC unit.

But with all these new wonders, the wonder RACE itself is simply insane, and consequently, as all the AI civs tend to engage in it, I often end up with only the M of M built, which is nice, but I mean, come on. I can't even get my beloved GL built anymore...

...not that it would, seemingly, matter. I've focused almost entirely on trading techs and even running a deficit to stay in the lead, just desperately trying to get an SGL which I have yet to see even though I'm always first to Philosophy. Always. We're talking 15 games in a row where I get Philosophy first and no SGL.

In fact, I'm often - I'd say 50% of the time gaming - in the lead, tech wise, but I've yet to see one SGL. So, I've been prebuilding all these neat wonders. But I'm always beat out. In my last game, the Persians beat me to the Temple of Artemis by 4 TURNS!!!

As for the mass upgrade... well... it's a bit pricey now, isn't it? And combine that with the severe resource scarcity...

I often won't find iron, period, within my REXing ability - and I've been doing some good hardcore REXing. I will often find only one source of only one luxury, which really screws things up for me, badly, especially when I want to upgrade those warriors who have been protecting my cities and send them forth.

Well, anyhow, I'm trying a new strategy this weekend, and I'll see how it pans out. It involves these new tactics:

1. Keeping Philosophy to Myself. I got Philosophy and picked up Polytheism as the bonus tech. This time, I'm not going to trade these away. I don't have a single good city to build the Temple of Artemis with, really, but hopefully, with no other civ possessing these techs, they won't be building it anytime soon, either. Of course, I could still get beat overseas.

Normally I would trade these for HR, the tech that is going around that I don't have. Except for HR I have the tech lead, so I'm going to keep it I suppose.

2. Researching Construction at the 50-turn Rate. Construction at 90% research still seems ridiculously expensive. In my last game, it would've taken 35 turns, when I had a well-developed, large core. So this time, I'm going to research it at 50 turns and reap the financial rewards. I tried this in the last game and netted 25 gpt, which brought me to about ~2000 gold in reserves, enough money to upgrade my warriors (had I spent the time building them, but that's a different story).

The Greeks beat me to Construction by 8 turns, so I wasn't able to trade it - I don't think that'll be the case in my current game. The last game was the same one where I got beat to the Temple of Artemis and 1 city defected to the Zulus thus inciting me to throw in the towel.

3. Skip the Great Library Is it really useful anymore? Many debated it's usefulness in PTW, but I sure didn't. Now, I'm not sure how useful it is really. Still probably pretty useful, given I'm surrounded by neighbors. But I think I'd rather have the Temple of Artemis.

4. Use the Same Old Tactics Anyways In the end, I'll probably just try a mass upgrade to legionaries (using money saved by research Construction at 50 turns) and try to kick some rear. This depends on my ability to find iron of course. I currently don't have any. I might have to upgrade to horsemen, which would, of course, suck. But c'est la vie.

Would anyone like to comment on these plans? Glaring flaws I'm overlooking? Success stories of your own in the epic game since C3C was released?

Please bear in mind I'm playing huge continent worlds here, with the max number of civs.

BTW, one other thing I'd like to throw out: it's nice to have those curraghs, isn't it?

[vmxa1]

As I mention in another thread, do not trade any techs after the second tier. Do not sweat the GL, if you get it fine. The key wonder is Temple of Zeus. If you can get it you win. I would drop the Temple of Artemis way down. Those temples are temporary.

Mass upgrades are pricey and not needed if you get Zeus. Research at the highest rate you can afford at all times.

Use the Cuuagh to get to all the civs ASAP. No one can get you contacts for a long time and they will be loathed to go out to sea/ocean. To that end found your 2nd or 3rd city on the coast.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The only problem with your strategy is that it necessitates being near Ivory.

Trust me, if I'm near it, I'm gonna make building the SoZ a priority. Those ACs are awesome!!!

But... since you only get 1 every 5 turns... are they really better than a mass upgrade? To screw up a civilization, pretty badly, they'd be good... but to annex a civilization whole, as is my wont (especially now that MGLs cannot rush great wonders, thus somewhat downgrading the whole WW1-style leader-generating war tactic), you need more than a handful of troops, even if they're the awesome ACs.

[Arrian]

The wonder you should prioritize is the Pyramids. Not the GL. On monarch you should be able to keep up with or outresearch the AI (I'd say blow them away, but I'm trying to be concious of the fact that I usually play out nice river or lake starts, and you might be more diehard).

Zeus is nice. Very nice. If you get ivory, or can get it via trade, definitely build it. If not, don't sweat it.

I don't think Artemis is all that. Bah. I don't need no steeenking temples that disappear with education!

You're playing Rome. You're commercial. I would suggest this: Philosophy beeline, take CoL as your freebie. Writing should be the tech you trade away, but hang on to Philo and CoL until you can really get juicy things for them. Writing should hopefully bring in Iron Working. Alpha should hopefully have gotten you bronze and some of the other 1st tier techs.

After getting CoL, you need to decide whether or not you're going to be ready for republic soon. You several good cities (cities, not towns. Size 7+) if you want to switch to republic and still be able to have a good army. I'd aim to upgrade 10-15 warriors to legionaries (600-900 gold). If you don't have iron (you should know this by the time you trade away writing, I'd hope), the fallbacks are: chariot upgrade, or archer attack to get iron, followed by the 10-15 warrior to legionary upgrade, just a tad later.

If you're short on rivers/lakes, and thus cannot handle a republic switch, then I might suggest that you try to research and/or trade your way to at least Mysticism before going for Philo, so the freebie can be Polytheism... and then you go for Monarchy. That way you can get our of despotism but also support a larger army without having many (or any) 7+ cities.

In PTW, I often tried to hold off on my GA until I had a Forbidden built, even if it was a FP build near to my original core in preparation for a palace move via leader rushing to a far away spot. But under the current 3C3 corruption situation, forget that. I've still be building FPs in my Conquest games (partly out of habit, partly because I think having 2 small cores often still beats out one larger core... by a nose), but I'm not waiting for it anymore.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
The only problem with your strategy is that it necessitates being near Ivory.

Trust me, if I'm near it, I'm gonna make building the SoZ a priority. Those ACs are awesome!!!

But... since you only get 1 every 5 turns... are they really better than a mass upgrade? To screw up a civilization, pretty badly, they'd be good... but to annex a civilization whole, as is my wont (especially now that MGLs cannot rush great wonders, thus somewhat downgrading the whole WW1-style leader-generating war tactic), you need more than a handful of troops, even if they're the awesome ACs.

True, that is why I said IF (you get ivory). Mass upgrades are just not in my plans for ancient age, I won't have the money. I will do peice meal upgrades, as I get the money. You don't need many AC if you get an army. The fast heal and the movement of the AC allows me to roll over thoose ancient civs peacemeal. Vet AC have 5 HP's and elites have 6, enough said in that age.

I don't know if this will be available all the time as locations and setting will impact it. You always have to be prepared to do it a different way, that is why we have a brain and the AI does not.
We can adapt, if need be. No tactic works all the time, even with all the required conditions.

How many times have you had to chance in the past two years as the game changed? Anyway there is often another solution and it may be better. I doubt that there is only one right way.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

That's true. There is never only one right way.

But, on PTW, it seemed like the mass upgrade was, if not ALWAYS the right way, a very good way at least 80% of the time. Not so sure about that any more.

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I'll be sure to test it out this weekend... meanwhile, I'm wondering if anyone is still giving the Romans a shot. They do start on the coast occassionally, and they get the curragh right off the bat, so they're almost a mil/com/seafaring civ, if you look at things that way...

I may save 1800 gold, slowly researching, I dunno, Construction and Monarchy, say, and do a 30 legionary upgrade, if I can do it in time to beat out the other civs to Feudalism... anyhow, point is, I won't slam down my mouse and storm out of the room next time the Incas build the T of A while the Greeks build the Great Wall while the Zulus build the Oracle while the Byzantines build the Great Library all the same turn... those legionaries can still take those wonders away, one would think...

[Arrian]

Well, the slow research/save up thing to do now is this:

Philo beeline (max), take CoL as freebie, research republic at 50 turn rate (1 scientist). 50 turns of 70-100% tax (depending on your luxury slider needs) ought to bring in a fair amount of cash.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Supposing I don't go with Republic, though?

What if I want to "broaden my house" a bit with loads o' Legionaries? In other words, switch to Monarchy and eventually to Rep/Democracy. I'm very comfortable with that playstyle, and I'm inclined to stay with it until I get used to all the other changes in this dang game... after all, I've been so aggreived by the ancient era I haven't played well into the middle ages on any of my games thus far.

What techs might act as a good substitute for Republic, in this case? Monarchy itself, perhaps? Was Construction a good idea, or do you think that's one to try to research more quickly?

[Arrian]

Well, then I think the best bet would be to get Mysticism prior to Philo, if you can w/o the AI beating you to Philo (should be, but you never know), and select Polytheism as the freebie, then researching Monarchy at 50 turn pace.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

So, you would say FORGET getting Code of Laws as the free tech, if I'm not doing Republic?

I've been trying to pry this answer out of someone on the "Beeline for Republic" thread, but no one'll tell me how good the trades are for Code of Laws...

For the record, what you recommend above is exactly what I'm doing in a current game... In fact, what I did this morning, right before I saved and went to work. Now I have Philo and Poly, and NO ONE ELSE DOES. Well, not on my continent anyways, which is 9 out of the 16 total civs in the world. A few have HR. Rome is building the Temple of Artemis, but is sorely not equipped for the job. But I might get it anyways, just 'cause no one else is building any wonders (a caveat: once again, I don't know about overseas)

If THIS game does not work out, I might crtl+shift+q until I get at least 2-3 luxuries, and then try the Republic route. For ME this might be an uphill battle at this point, though...

[realpolitic]

Conquering Wonders is usually the best way to go in the early game. With 31 other civs, I'd think this is would be a good tactic. Techtrade early and often, even if you're not the first to get it, you can make

[monkeyman]

Hi,

As vmxa1 suggested, mass upgrades are not always optimal. A group of 5 legions can easily take out a large, well-garrisoned spearman city. If a major city, or better yet, a capitol is within striking distance, this is more than worth the trouble. These 5 same units could probably take out 2 or more border cities over 3-10turns, meanwhile, more help should be on the way from your inner cities. The only things you need to worry about are a dog-pile (how's your diplomacy?) and smacking a sleeping giant that you thought was a sleeping mouse. , um, bad metaphor, but you get the picture...

If you can do this right, you can let your neighbors do the REXing (which you claim to be deficient in) for you AND eliminate or cripple one of your competitors.

YMMV,

--mm

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I learned a LOT about the Romans and the early game this weekend.

I have to disagree about that last point, Monkeyman, or at least, take issue with it. 5 legions are no garuntee of taking a city defended even by 2 spearmen, especially if it's over size 6. Is it likely that they will? Yes. But can you still lose this battle? Definitely, and if you lose, that's a big setback, especially if this is your first offensive. Trust me - I lost 4 legions alone taking on Constantinople, which was only size 6 - but I had sent 10, so this wasn't a major problem.

I did a mass upgrade of 26 warriors (1560 gold), taking on Byzantium, this weekend. The Byzantines kept beating me to wonders I was building, often by only a few turns, and out-culturing my a-ss. I was seriously worried about culture flips; we both shared the same incredibly rich "core area". I was way, way behind in tech. Way, way behind Byzantium and Carthage, and to the south, there were Greeks and Incas slightly ahead of me as well (the Egyptians were behind). I was near the quitting point when I decided to stick it out for a mass upgrade.

I'm glad I did. The Byzantines are good road-builders (maybe all the AIs are better now...) and great culture/wonder builders, but poor on defense and worse on offense. 26 legions, followed by a sleiugh of horsemen (maybe 20+ over the course of my GA), took down all of Byzantium, netting me:

- The Great Wall, Great Lighthouse, Mausoleum of Massolous and Statue of Zues (praise Odin! )

- Additional sources of horses and iron, as well as the only source of furs on the entire continent

- A bi-coastal empire (and the largest land mass in the game, rivalled narrowly perhaps by the Incas)

My culture was still behind, and I suffered one flip back (in Constantinople, which was easily retaken). But by the end of the war, only the Sumerians (on a nearby island and hence no threat at all), having built the MoM, and the Incas, having built the Pyramids, had a greater culture - and the Incas were far, far away.

Now they're not far away anymore, and I can thank the Statue of Zues for that. :worship: Ah, the Statue of Zues, the Statue of Zues. If there is one ancient wonder I will always aim for, it is the Statue of Zues. Those Ancient Cavs just keep on coming, and they're beautiful units... due to sloppy, late-night gameplay, I lost 3 or 4 of them, but that's ok, they keep coming, and with ancient cavs, elite horsemen and now knights (plus the occassional leftover legion) Egypt is wholly under my thumb, and Greece is next. I now almost border the Incas.

A few wrong moves I made which I regret, and should be noted:

- I researched Code of Laws after trading away writing, instead of Philosophy, and NOT at the full rate. About half-way through, I thought, "Hmm, I better crank tech up," and did so, getting CoL first - very valuable indeed for trading purposes - but losing the Philosophy race, I suspect by very few turns. I should have done Philosophy first, and taken either Polytheism or CoL.

- My research in the middle ages, I suspect, is all wrong. I haven't gotten yet any SGLs, which may mean nothing, but I'm pretty sure I'm either behind, or on par, with the civs on my continent AND abroad. I did get Engineering before the Carths and Incas, but they got Chivalry before me and Theology at about the same time.

(I'm now on the "upper" research path, going for Education and all the wonder-related techs, instead of Gunpowder-to-Mil Trad. The builder in me yearns for love. I will keep pushing with my knights until they don't do any good, and then I'll head for Mil. Trad.)

- I lost Sun Tzu's to the Japanese, who I haven't met, by a mere 4 turns. Start building that palace earlier I guess...

Otherwise, I'm doing fine. The upgrade cost deters me from upgrading my horsemen and spearmen for the time being, but I do have Leo's Workshop, so if I switch to Democracy and build Adam Smith's, I ought to be fine in this regard. The wars ahead of me, in the meantime, are going to be meat-grinders, but for a first effort, I'm pleased: I have the world's largest empire, complete with HG, G. Lighthouse, SoZ, MoM, GW, Leo's, 4 different luxuries, and plenty of iron and horses.

Now I need to read up that corruption thread and see if this is going to stop my typical meglomania, and force me to keep my empire at it's present size, which I'd prefer not to do...

Still...

[Arrian]

One other piece of advice: if you're going to use legionaries as your primary attack force, DEFINITELY take the time to build a small group of catapults. In 3C3, the cats will shoot at a town's defenders first, and often take off a hitpoint. Vet legionaries versus 2hp spearmen are gonna win the vast majority of the time. Vet legionaries versus 3hp spearmen don't do all that well.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I used my initial 26 legionaries to take down the incredibly poorly defended Byzantines. I didn't build any more legionaries, using the GA to flood out horsies (and improvements) instead. I only have about 10 legions left, and they're all defenders/MP enforcers.

I couldn't have done much of it without those wonderful Ancient Cavalry though. I'm STILL using them, now to attack the Incas, who hold the Pyramids far to the South.

Man, Rome isn't what it should be with that corruption bug though... I'm ready to plant my FP in preparation to eventually plant my SPHQ... but it'll have to wait until I take the Incas to the South, with their Pyramids, which I figure will give me the growth I need to justify a two-core empire (under the current rules).

Any other Roman stories since C3C's been out? Irritating Byzantines, ne c'est pas?