Express Path to Republic in C3C

[vmxa1]

I have not found the Knights Templar to be all useful. I mean, I am glad I got it and they did not. I just am not able to get the units into much action and they become rear guard troops.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DrSpike

I'm not understanding this.........they don't benefit from the half price aqueduct because they get a zero price aqueduct right?

Technically, it's that they don't need aqueducts rather than that they get them for free, but yes.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DrSpike


This doesn't help IMO........you can still do what I suggested above, and it's lower risk detouring to CoL anyway. You still get republic at around about the earliest time you can feasibly go to it anyway.

CoL is cost ten. The government techs are cost 24 for Monarchy and cost 28 for Republic. So while getting CoL free can speed up getting Republic, it speeds it up just a little over a third as much as getting Republic for free can.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by nbarclay


Technically, it's that they don't need aqueducts rather than that they get them for free, but yes.

So they don't benefit from a half price aqueduct because they don't need one at all. That's twisted logic.

Hehe, I know what you mean.......*both* agricultural and non-agricultural don't need the aqueduct. But it still obviously true that agricultural civs benefit more from rivers.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by nbarclay


CoL is cost ten. The government techs are cost 24 for Monarchy and cost 28 for Republic. So while getting CoL free can speed up getting Republic, it speeds it up just a little over a third as much as getting Republic for free can.

Yes I know the tech costs.

The point is under my scheme you research at 50 turns, so you benefit from the cap and can amass loads of cash. Sure you get republic later (actually just about the time you can viably switch), but you can rarely use it effectively straight away under your scheme. Also your scheme can go wrong quite easily, especially above Monarch.

[Catt]

Off-Topic:

Originally posted by steven8r

Originally posted by SirOsis
Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units?

Crusaders do NOT cost anything. Same with Ancient Cavalry. Both Temple of Zeus and Knights Templar = free units!

I interpret SirOsis' original question to be whether or not the free units require upkeep costs like any other unit -- and the answer is that they most certainly do. Nontheless, a very small price to pay for free units or free mobile shields (move the units and disband in cities).

On-Topic: Usual caveat that it's too early with C3C to say for sure blah blah blah . . . if I am quite comfortable with my tech position, I will go for CoL before Phil so I can grab Republic for free (and would do the same with Polytheism for a free Monarchy if I wanted Monarchy); if I am at all uncertain, I think I'll tend for the safer play of just getting Phil, taking CoL for free, and then pursuing Rep or some other tech with native research. I've tried the "CoL first" approach three times (of 5 games), including once by accident when I forgot that Phil is now such a juicy tech. Once it worked, and twice it failed (meaning I was not first to Phil). Both failures (Emp and DemiGod levels, respectively) were due to overseas civs getting there before me and with only minimal warning (i.e., a wonder pop-up or two that indicated that the other continent was progressing more quickly than my own, but after I had pretty much committed to the approach).

Catt

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DrSpike

The point is under my scheme you research at 50 turns, so you benefit from the cap and can amass loads of cash. Sure you get republic later (actually just about the time you can viably switch), but you can rarely use it effectively straight away under your scheme. Also your scheme can go wrong quite easily, especially above Monarch.

The risk of the scheme's misfiring is certainly a serious drawback. But a civ that's in a strong enough position to win the race on Emperor or higher is very likely strong enough to benefit from an early switch to Republic. A lot depends on how many units the civ has; industrious civs have something of an advantage because they need fewer workers, and a civ with a small military can benefit from Republic sooner than one with a large military can (both because it has lower upkeep costs and because it loses less advantage from MPs). Note also that Republic reduces waste and corruption, so in addition to the extra gold per tile (assuming you've kept up on improvements), outlying cities produce a bit more gold and shields after the switch.

I'm certainly not saying that going for CoL and then Philosophy in order to get Republic faster is always a good idea. But it can be an excellent one with a good enough start.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

So far, on Monarch level, I'm inclined to say the safest path to Phil is: Alphabet-> Writing-> something not TOO costly, and tradeable (mathematics is a good choice, IMHO) -> Philosophy.

I tried the CoL gambit (although sloppily) this weekend, and it did not work out; the first game in which I didn't get Philo first.

On Monarch level, researching Writing and then Philosophy at 50 turns per tech will still generally land you Philosophy first, for what that's worth.

[vmxa1]

YS that works on Mon and I have pulled it off on Emp, but it is out of the question on Demi. I have not tried the higher level so far, but I am sure it going to be rare.

[DrSpike]

Writing at 50 is ok........but turn the slider up for Philo. If you get it first at 50 its only because the AI chose not to research it, so the strategy is a bad one.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Writing at 50 is ok........but turn the slider up for Philo. If you get it first at 50 its only because the AI chose not to research it, so the strategy is a bad one.

yeah, the only way I could see that working is if you start with alpha or can hut it or trade for it very early on. Unfortunately I usually play civs that do not get alpha, so always a race and gamble, even on emperor for me.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
So far, on Monarch level, I'm inclined to say the safest path to Phil is: Alphabet-> Writing-> something not TOO costly, and tradeable (mathematics is a good choice, IMHO) -> Philosophy.

The end-goal is to be the first to Philosophy so you get the free tech. The sub-goal is to research something before Philosophy that makes the free tech from Philosophy more valuable to you. If you detour from Philosophy for any reason, it should be to research a pre-requisite tech for the tech you have your eye on as the "free" tech. With that said, the only reason I can see for diverting from the Philosophy path for Mathematics is if you've set your sights on Currency (or Construction, if you've traded for Iron Working) as the free tech. Otherwise, you'd be better off going straight for Philosophy (minimize risk) and researching the more expensive Math after your empire has developed a bit more during the path to Philosopy. Or am I missing something?

Catt

[Dominae]

Re: Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by nbarclay
I would say "above average" rather than perfect. In a way, restarting a couple times or so to start on a river with an Agricultural civ isn't all that different from choosing an Archipelago map for a Seafaring civ (especially the Vikings) or a Pangea map for an Expansionist civ. Doing any of those things loads the dice a bit in the civ's favor, making the game not a valid test of how well the player could do with the same civ under less favorable conditions. (Although I'll admit that the difference for Agricultural civs depending on whether or not fresh water is available is probably a bit bigger.)

I wrote big long post about this here: On the Agricultural trait.

Also note that some AIs get better starting positions than others. Thus, if it averages taking three restarts to get a starting position I like on particular map settings, in an 8-civ game, there are probably a couple AIs with at least as good a starting position as I have. (And odds aren't bad that one of those civs is also agricultural.) In contrast, playing out a bad start practially guarantees that there will be AIs with better starting positions. So in terms of best-vs.-best, small numbers of restarts have an effect more along the lines of avoiding leaving the human player at a significant disadvantage than along the lines of providing an advantage.

What you're not considering is that it's not you versus a particular AI, it's you versus all the AIs. Giving yourself a better start makes the whole game easier. Restarts only provide advantages. Your point only makes sense in a MP or PBEM environment.

Consequently, saying that some things are "too easy" or "too powerful" is often a direct reflection of the quality of your start, and not actually something in the game mechanics. On average, it is in fact a lot tougher to play the Philosophy game (on Emperor) than you make it out to be.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

@Catt:

No, your reasoning is very sound, makes a lot of sense. I was just trying to figure a tech that would fit in before Philosophy, that would allow you to win the Philosophy race. I'm skeptical of the ability to get CoL before Philosophy consistently; hence, I suggested mathematics. But there are others. Mysticism is generally taken by someone by this point, but it is not, somehow, then that would make a good sub-goal.

On the other hand, CoL is very valuable for trading; if you're not looking to get Republic right away you might as well get CoL as your free tech.

For me, the optimal path would be to get Monarchy for free... but rarely do I have Polytheism at this point. And that's just my playstyle; I like the stability of Monarchy, and Republic tends to give me a headache. I'm still learning, you see.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
No, your reasoning is very sound, makes a lot of sense. I was just trying to figure a tech that would fit in before Philosophy, that would allow you to win the Philosophy race. I'm skeptical of the ability to get CoL before Philosophy consistently; hence, I suggested mathematics. But there are others. Mysticism is generally taken by someone by this point, but it is not, somehow, then that would make a good sub-goal.

I guess my point was more along the lines of: (1) get to Philosophy first! You must secure the free tech; (2) about the only reason to detour from the Philosophy beeline if you've set your heart on Philosophy is to gamble that the detour itself will allow you to utilize the free tech in a more powerful manner. In other words, I would detour for Math, CoL, Mysticism, Polytheism, etc. only if the detour allowed me to utilize the free tech choice to better advantage. So, Nathan's point in this thread is that a CoL detour allows taking Republic as a free tech; a Polytheism detour allows selecting Monarchy as the free tech -- in both cases, the detour allows the player to use the free tech for (1) a much more expensive techs than others available, and (2) a much more beneficial tech to the player in most cases (i.e., get out of despotism).

Catt