Express Path to Republic in C3C

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Dominae: I see your point about the map generator... but as agricultural gives half-priced aqueducts and hospitals (right?), people might still look at those and be tempted to play even if the start position is not optimal, right? Because people playing in a non-optimal start position are playing for a challenge, which they consider fun (whereas people like me just don't want their behinds to get kicked right off the bat and tend to reload, regardless of traits)

As far as I can tell, agricultural isn't the be-all-end-all trait. It's nice, but I think Industrious is still #1, because REXing only goes on for so long, and once the RCP bug is fixed, Commercial will probably still be damn good.

You might very well be right, but I think there's still hope.

But this is way OT I suppose.

One question that is on-topic I'd like to pose is: With the RNG giving the player so few luxuries, or so it seems, why would one want to high-tail it to Republic?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ok, WAIT, nevermind: the luxury slider. I forgot the luxury slider.

I'm sorry... I am a bad person... I apologize for the last question. Don't flog me please.

[Arrian]

There will be no flogging here. The luxury slider is indeed the answer - but with the combo of few luxuries and C3C's version of republic, that pretty much precludes having a strong military and being able to research. Which is good, of course, because that is to say you can't do everything at once.

If you do have several luxuries, with good land, you can (at least up to Monarch... after that, on Emp/Demi, with only 1 citizen born content, it will be dicier).

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
There will be no flogging here.

/me sadly puts away his new flogging machine.

[Arrian]

Now THAT was funny, Dom.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

/me Removes bullet from mouth and wipes sweat from brow

[asleepathewheel]

The mayans are definately a powerhouse for the human. Serious rexxing capabilities plus enslaving barbs and enemies early early in the game is quite an advantage, even if it means a bc, pre-republic golden age, an extra 10 workers overcomes it that early, IMHO.

I find my self pushing for phil, no matter what civ or landmass, hoping to trade for alpha (either for my orig techs or hut techs) and using the free tech on code of laws (though in my current game I chose construction). Then, if I need to, I whore out CoL and phil and get everything the AI has. Very powerful. I do find that if I don't beeline for phil, I am beaten by the AI, hence repub is not usually an option for me

[realpolitic]

The extra tech doesn't equal the value of having lots of conquered territory. The price of techs will go down in cost over time, but the cities will get bigger. Philosophy won't get me extra shields, but cities will.

[nbarclay]

Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

Originally posted by Dominae

It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

I would say "above average" rather than perfect. In a way, restarting a couple times or so to start on a river with an Agricultural civ isn't all that different from choosing an Archipelago map for a Seafaring civ (especially the Vikings) or a Pangea map for an Expansionist civ. Doing any of those things loads the dice a bit in the civ's favor, making the game not a valid test of how well the player could do with the same civ under less favorable conditions. (Although I'll admit that the difference for Agricultural civs depending on whether or not fresh water is available is probably a bit bigger.)

Also note that some AIs get better starting positions than others. Thus, if it averages taking three restarts to get a starting position I like on particular map settings, in an 8-civ game, there are probably a couple AIs with at least as good a starting position as I have. (And odds aren't bad that one of those civs is also agricultural.) In contrast, playing out a bad start practially guarantees that there will be AIs with better starting positions. So in terms of best-vs.-best, small numbers of restarts have an effect more along the lines of avoiding leaving the human player at a significant disadvantage than along the lines of providing an advantage. Perhaps more importantly for purposes of discussion on Apolyton, that small a number of restarts does not put my games outside the realm of "normal."

And a lot has to do with what kind of game a player wants. When I play solo, I tend far more in the "ultimate power" direction than in the "hard fought challenge" direction, so I fairly routinely restart a few times to get a starting position I like. Compared with what I do a lot of the time, the two restarts before my first game and probably about three or four before my second was on the low side, and I seriously doubt that I would have played either of those starts out in a solo game without the Agricultural trait.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

By the way, one other quirk to Agricultural: every city that starts on a river and thus gets an extra food under Despotism is a city that won't benefit from a half-price aqueduct later on. That counteracts a little bit (albeit admittedly nowhere near all) of the "Agricultural civs benefit more from rivers than other civs" effect.

Regarding Philosophy, just modifying things so you can't get Republic or Monarchy as a free tech would be sufficient to close the "free early government" loophole. (I'm pretty sure that with a good starting position and a good REX, the loophole could be exploited to get Monarchy in much the same way as it can Republic. That could be especially interesting for an Ultimate Power game as Egypt!)

Nathan

[SirOsis]

I made a grab for Monarchy in my current game. Went up to Polytheism then traded for writing and got to Philosophy first. Then I chose Monarchy as my free tech.

Worked out quite well because I was playing the Hittites and was able to contact every civ, trade techs, and stay in the lead due to the expansionist trait. Bypassed Republic to enter the Middle Age well ahead of everyone. Shooting for Chivalry to rush the Knights Templar with my SGL.

Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units? If so I think I'll stay in Monarchy because I'll have quite a few units and could use the 4 unit support for cities. Better than Republics 3 and I can have 3 Military Police so my army can become huge without a huge happiness hit. Although now that I've built the Temple of Artemis I could maybe get some WLTKDs and reduce some corruption.

Monarchy actually is a good early government. Don't always need to beeline for Republic.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by nbarclay
By the way, one other quirk to Agricultural: every city that starts on a river and thus gets an extra food under Despotism is a city that won't benefit from a half-price aqueduct later on. That counteracts a little bit (albeit admittedly nowhere near all) of the "Agricultural civs benefit more from rivers than other civs" effect.

Nathan

I'm not understanding this.........they don't benefit from the half price aqueduct because they get a zero price aqueduct right?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by nbarclay

Regarding Philosophy, just modifying things so you can't get Republic or Monarchy as a free tech would be sufficient to close the "free early government" loophole. (I'm pretty sure that with a good starting position and a good REX, the loophole could be exploited to get Monarchy in much the same way as it can Republic. That could be especially interesting for an Ultimate Power game as Egypt!)

Nathan

This doesn't help IMO........you can still do what I suggested above, and it's lower risk detouring to CoL anyway. You still get republic at around about the earliest time you can feasibly go to it anyway.

[steven8r]

Originally posted by SirOsis
Does anyone know if the Crusaders are supported units?

Crusaders do NOT cost anything. Same with Ancient Cavalry. Both Temple of Zeus and Knights Templar = free units!

[steven8r]

Re: Re: Express Path to Republic in C3C

In my last game, I got Philosopy first and used my freebie on Literature--no one else had it. I was able to build GL and then CoL, Rep, etc. were no problem to get--they just magically appeared. (had to wait a little while until I found more civs, but once I found them, the techs just started pouring in.

With the GL, I dropped my research to 0% and just started building my military.