50 turn techs

[sabrewolf]

with c3c at the doorsteps in north america and 10 days away in europe, i want to ask a question to the great strategists around here:

what are the consequences of the new maximal tech research limit of 50 turns?

will a writing/literature-gambit still work and you can get the great library (without a perfect prebuild)?
can you still go for polytheism and trade it against all other 2nd and 3rd level techs?

this was a generally accepted and even recommended exploit (one of the few i use). it looks to me that the 25% longer research time will make it even harder on higher levels and makes it even harder to catch up.

of course i'd appreciate some of the beta testers impressions, too

[Brundlefly]

Re: 50 turn techs

Originally posted by sabrewolf
with c3c at the doorsteps in north america and 10 days away in europe, i want to ask a question to the great strategists around here:

what are the consequences of the new maximal tech research limit of 50 turns?

will a writing/literature-gambit still work and you can get the great library (without a perfect prebuild)?
can you still go for polytheism and trade it against all other 2nd and 3rd level techs?

this was a generally accepted and even recommended exploit (one of the few i use). it looks to me that the 25% longer research time will make it even harder on higher levels and makes it even harder to catch up.

of course i'd appreciate some of the beta testers impressions, too

GL will be more important. Your best bet now will be to build that with Great Leader.

Should not make much of a difference in higher levels as best strategy there anyway is to turn science down to 10% and get techs thru trade.

[Catt]

Over the last few months I have grown more and more accustomed to doing max or near max research pretty frequently (on Emperor level). Even when I see Math will take 36 turns at max research, I have developed a much better feel for how long it will actually take after taking into account REXing growth during the upcoming turns. Rarely build the GLib anymore.

In answer to your questions, I for one won't know until I have C3C and give it a whirl

Catt

[Arrian]

Like Catt, I've been doing a lot of flat-out research (though on Monarch). I have sometimes done writing at 40 turns (if commercial). That will most likely change.

I've also sometimes done 40-turn research on the wheel to start when I'm expansionist... figuring that I'll be popping lots of huts and the one tech I DO NOT want is Horseback Riding. The only problem with that is if I get unlucky with huts and only pop a few and/or get little tech out of those I do pop.

50 turns isn't a huge change, but it does make doing real research more desireable.

-Arrian

[alexman]

Research in the ancient age is also encouraged by the fact that Philosophy now provides a free tech to the first one to discover it (like it used to do in earlier versions of Civ).

At higher levels you can't even rely on Map and Communication trades to catch up on tech, because these abilities are moved to the Middle Ages.

Also, scientists now give 3 beakers each, so you actually waste research potential when researching a tech with a single scientist and 0% science.

And then there is the whole scientific leader concept. These scientific guys have a chance to go to the first civ to discover a tech, which is important since military great leaders can no longer rush great wonders!

It's looking as if research in the Ancient age is back! I can't wait to receive my copy of C3C.

[grappleman]

wow, are you sure military GL's can no longer rush wonders? that would change the way i play A LOT. It's cool to hear that philosophy gives you a free tech as well. (Almost makes me think about researching it now.... ). Scientific Leaders should be interesting but doesnt that mean that for every tech discovered someone has a chance of getting a SGL? or is it for only specific techs such as Theory of Gravity? should be interesting to find out. Looking forward to Conquests

[alexman]

Every tech gives a 3% chance of a SGL to the civ that first dicovers it (5% for scientific civs).

And yes, unless they changed it at the last moment, MGL can't rush great wonders (but they can rush small wonders and other improvements)

[mimi]

Originally posted by alexman
Every tech gives a 3% chance of a SGL to the civ that first dicovers it (5% for scientific civs).

And yes, unless they changed it at the last moment, MGL can't rush great wonders (but they can rush small wonders and other improvements)

So what's the point of MGL now then? From over powered to useless... why would we ever play militaristic? If you can only use them to rush, say, the FP, you only need one or two for the whole game so no need to worry about elites and HE... With such a slim chance of getting a MGL why bother?

[Dominae]

With such a slim chance of getting a MGL why bother?

1. Because the FP is one of the main Wonders you want to rush with a Leader.

2. Because Armies are forces to be reckoned with now.

3. Because a slim chance is better than no chance (or lower chance, for non-Mil civs).


This is bound to be one of the more controversial changes in the game. I think it's great. Warmongering was too strong before, and there was little incentive to research before you were way ahead economically.

Mind you, there are IMO problems with the SGL concept, but in general it will be good for the game.


Dominae

[sabrewolf]

wow, so imagine this very unlikely situation: you pop a hut which gives you philosophy which gives you another free tech... and that one might even give you a SGL.

but damn... no more wonder rushing with MGLs? so now there's no trade-off between an army (therefor heroic epic finally and therefor higher chances for a leader) and a wonder.

so all you need is 1 MGL (for the FP), or maybe a second one for the palace switch. all the other small wonders come a lot later and can be built in a matter of several turns.

so what's the consequence of all this:
easier levels get easier, higher level even more difficult. i only can succeed on emperor/deity with a settler factory starting position and enough space. now i can more or less forget getting any ancient or early medieval wonder... i guess i should go for adam smith's, i might even get that one

[sabrewolf]

btw, some calculations:
for non scientific civs it takes an average of 23 techs [ 1-((1 - 0.03)^x) > 0.5 ] to get an SGL,
for scientific "only" 14 techs [ 1-((1 - 0.05)^x) > 0.5 ] in average.

that's a fairly slim chance considering you could easily win 16 elite battles per turn in some games and now it takes an average of 56 (=14x4) turns for scientific civs. that's if you research a tech constantly at 4 turns/tech (ultimate power).

these figures seem quite extreme! have i miscalculated something?

[Arrian]

With the downgrading of MGLs, clearly Militaristic took a hit. Add in the loss of 1/2 cost harbors, and it's a relatively significant hit. The increased abilities of armies do mitigate that somewhat, though.

The Palace move is the most crucial element of Ultimate Power, so MGLs primary purpose (for me) remains intact. I've just lost the ability to rampage through the middle ages hardly ever actually BUILDING a wonder.

Current game: Monarch, Continents, 8 civs, England.

Great Leaders:

1) Palace move
2) Leos
3) Army (Theseus would be proud: 2x med inf + musketman)
4) Smith

If this game had been played with Conquests (leaving aside other changes), it would have looked like this:

1) Palace move
2) Army
3) Army
4) Military Academy

I would have lost Leos. But since I actually did most of my expensive upgrading before rushing Leos, that wouldn't have been a big deal (I had already assumed I'd lose it, so I went ahead with the knight upgrades and kicked off the war that got me leaders 2-4).

That game has absolutely rocked. I got one of the best capitol locations I've ever seen (river, 3 cow on grass, many bonus grass, 3-4 hills... just awesome). My second city, though it looks like nothing special now, was amazing for the ancient age: 5 bonus grass + 1 mined hill = 13spt (12 uncorrupted) at size 6 = Pyramids. That helped me overcome otherwise uninspiring terrain (lots of jungle to my south) to become a powerhouse. Well, that and the GA I triggered the turn I got into republic (Colossus prebuild in the Pyramids city). London pounded out the Great Library with shocking speed. It was like 12 turns. The 1st leader I got was the icing. I had settled for less than optimal Palace/FP placement, but once I got the leader, that changed. The FP went in close to London, and operation "capture Delhi so I can stick my palace there" began.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I must say, the 50-turn limit doesn't look bad to me. More turns at minimum science = more money and more time building warriors/chariots = larger army when you actually do your upgrade.

Using this tactic currently, I'm still behind in tech... having an additional 10 turns won't change that. It'll just make the army I build larger, and hence, longer-lasting.

Now revised communications trading, that might change things. I might have to research IW now instead of trading for it. And that seems a major pain in the rear. But we'll see, we'll see. Us New Yorkers don't get the dang game until tomorrow...

[alexman]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I must say, the 50-turn limit doesn't look bad to me. More turns at minimum science = more money and more time building warriors/chariots = larger army when you actually do your upgrade.

Not as easy as it sounds, because with Conquests you need 50% more gold to upgrade (3 gold per shield)! So that's 60g per Warrior upgrade for you.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by alexman
Not as easy as it sounds, because with Conquests you need 50% more gold to upgrade (3 gold per shield)! So that's 60g per Warrior upgrade for you.

Urg.

You're right... that's not so hot, is it.

...ah, well. We'll have to see if this is still a viable strategy I guess... I wonder what the Epic Game is going to look like in general? The mass upgrade often seems like the only way out of a hole...