Revolutionary Strategy Implications of C3C

[Cort Haus]

Apparantly Conquests includes this earth-shaking modification:

Tweaked Diplomacy
- Communication trading now comes with Printing Press
- Map trading now comes with Navigation


That changes everything. The ancient era will no longer be over in the BC period, which will in turn change the shape of the following era. It also makes the expansionist trait into a long-term cartographic monopoly.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The "cartographic monopoly" will chiefly be useful to determine whom to attack and when, don't you think? Will it really be helpful to a pacifist? And how helpful will it be period, as the AI constantly demands that troops be withdrawn?

I'm not sure I like this improvement. What's going to happen to mapmaking? That is one of the most important techs of the ancient era... with that greatly diminished, the whole ancient era strategy (for a lot of folks, and the AI) will have to change.

As for Printing Press allowing communication... well, it's not very realistic, but I like it. It will make ancient era wars all the more vigorous, as you won't be able to ask for alliances. This most likely means that more civs will live on into the medival and industrial eras. Very interesting!

I still think the most revolutionary change will simply be the change in traits, for all the civs. I'm a huge map fan, and I can't stand all the expanionists... the tendency of the various expanionists to find new techs first, and trade them amongst each other, often leaves the player behind in the ancient era... and I like having a tech lead! I greatly look forward to a reduced expanionist presence, although it will change the game greatly, won't it?

I think these changes are good. They are certainly revolutionary, or at least, major changes... I think we will see more civs survive to see the industrial age this way.

Hopefully seafaring will make actual overseas colonization possible... could be!

[alexman]

I have to agree that those diplomacy changes are significant.

You will need to focus more on exploration (at the expense of growth) to find more civs to trade with. This will be essential if you want to stay in the tech race at the higher difficulty levels. The expansionist trait will become even more powerful.

On the other hand, the tech pace will slow down, making the ancient age last longer. This will allow you to still attack your neighbors with ancient units without having to face pikemen in the BC.

For anyone wanting to get a head start in developing new C3C strategies, the two diplomacy changes can be made even now in PTW with the editor.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by alexman
For anyone wanting to get a head start in developing new C3C strategies, the two diplomacy changes can be made even now in PTW with the editor.

Aha, very perceptive! Alexman is always a source of fine ideas and useful facts.

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm looking forward to this... It will give the "natural builders" more leeway to build, not to mention attain a tech lead or at least keep up in tech without trading every turn, and it will give the "natural early warmongers" - Celts, Aztecs, Persians, etc. - more time to conquer nearby civs before their UU is made kaput!

Very desirable all around... when I think about it, perhaps I should retract my earlier comment that civs will tend to last longer... the early warmongers might very well be able to wipe out quite a few civs before feudalism rolls around!

[Jaybe]

Contact with other civs might not be delayed all that much. Aren't there supposedly new techs which may enhance naval travel capabilities?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Contact with other civs might not be delayed all that much. Aren't there supposedly new techs which may enhance naval travel capabilities?

I don't think anything official has been said about this. I sure hope the "naval scout" unit makes it in!

There is the curragh... but does anyone know exactly what the curragh does, what tech allows it to be built, etc?

[David Murray]

I gasped with shock when I read the first post - then I realized that this is exactly what the game needs. How many times have I thought to myself: "What, Leonardo's workshop is being built in 250BC?! Cavalry by 400AD?!!" Imagine the tech race progressing much more slowly (like it did in the real world until the spread of mass communication), allowing the player to fully appreciate all the different kinds of units and not be overwhelmed with improvements to build. This could well be the coolest thing ever

[Catt]

If this is true, it will be a huge (okay, a pretty darn big) change, and will definitely increase the value of expansionists.

Even though the AI asks you to leave its territory frequently, with a scout (or other unit without A/D) you can say "Sure, I'll leave . . " and stay in the AI's territory for a long time. Without an early "No A/D unit," civs run the risk of not being able to make contact directly nor trade for contact with any number of other civs that are "blocked" by neutral / enemy territory. Sounds like it will demand a modest increase in early-game diplomacy skills for some players -- ROPs may be required to make / acquire contact before mapmaking.

In addition to alexman's notes, the expansionists will have a great headstart on long-range planning.

On the downside, I hope it doesn't (1) materially increase the frequency of AI units roaming through one's territory, (2) materially increase the number of nuisance "leave or declare war" wars in the first few thousand years, or (3) reward any further the tactic of selling world maps every turn (I don't have a guess as to how valuable a world map would be at Navigation without the opportunity to trade maps prior to such time).

Catt

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Is ROP possible without establishing an embassy? Am I such a nimwit that I've never noticed that? Since I stopped building embassies early in the game (frequently) I've also largely stopped signed ROP agreements.

ROP agreements or no, the street runs both ways - if you can't get through the other AI's land, the AI can't get through yours. Without, of course, a war.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Is ROP possible without establishing an embassy?

Nope.

As to the street running both ways, it really depends on whether or not you want to provoke the AI into war when they're wandering through your territory. At some of the higher levels the AI will declare war at the drop of a hat. You have to decide whether it's worth it to deny them the use of your land.

[Rhothaerill]

Back to the main topic though I definitely agree with Catt that the expansionist trait will get a boost out of this new change. Information about your enemy is key and without map trading the expansionists will have the best knowledge of their enemies. Expansionist might even come up to the par of industrious in importance with this new change. I might have to try the Americans again in Conquests.

[Cort Haus]

We'll have to see what counterbalances the game design has - like seafaring to enhance discovery capacity.

However, with no early communications trading, maybe only sea-farers will enjoy the tech-cost and trading benefits for overseas civs - and likewise to a lesser extent for expansionists on land. ROPs will be now used for exploring and contact, and non-ROP trespass will become even more routine.

If sea-faring gives extra movement to certain units, Contact Monopoly (the 'Lighthouse' trait) could be more important than 'mapopoly'.


Source of C3C info :

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95446

[Rhothaerill]

BTW, thanks for the info Cort Haus. I confess to not having followed info in the Conquests forum too closely.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Without ROP, without exchanging maps... good lord! The whole (typical) game is different! Not entirely realisitic, but I have a feeling a bit more balanced.

Perhaps we'll have the Mongols be the leaders in ancient-era technology a bit less often now?

[alexman]

You can still have ROP and embassies. It's only communications trading that they moved from Writing to Printing Press, AFAIK.