Civ-Specific Strategy: French

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Nor Me
Fight now to be a better builder later. I'd try and have the palace and FP placed right and have things to build before triggering your golden age.

Well...

my point is that he already has more than enough land for a comfortable victory. I'm aware, that everyone has a different playstyle and there are as many opinions as players, but if you ask me, in terms of fun and entertainment it may be worth to let the remainders of his neighbors live. I mean: don't conquer them, vassalize them. Let them be dependent from you, be their tech broker, sell them luxuries and resources, send them in wars with other powers, with other words: Be the big, fat, evil, Machiavellian bastard. That is fun for me, YMMV.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
France vs Carthage

How about neither of these compare to Ottomans. The only thing bad about Ottomans is that they have the bad attribute 'Scientific' instead of nice 'Commercial'. But the Sipahi UU more than makes up for this problem.

[bongo]

Only problem with all that machiavellian stuff is that once one of your vassals buy 'sliced bread'(or some other fancy tech) for two lux an 100GPT and declear war to get out of the deal 3 turns later....then the only satisfying solution is to wipe them clean off the map Having a trade-embargo and some of your other vassal bombard coastal tiles and capture the odd city just ain't enough.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Nor Me
Yes, switch to Republic now.

I have very little experience fighting wars under a Republic, so this makes me nervous, but this is what most of the "pros" seem to do, so now's as good a time as any to learn, I suppose.

One quick question: how many turns do y'all expect I might get (under Republic) before war weariness sets in, assuming I declare war? (another related question might be, any sure fire ways to get the Eygptians to attack me?)

You don't really need to hold off attacking any civ until they have Gunpowder. I'd try and control this continent with knights simply because it would be better to research the upper path. Fight now to be a better builder later. I'd try and have the palace and FP placed right and have things to build before triggering your golden age.

Ah, music to my ears.

Still, any more advice on how to do about this? I completely overlooked Egypt's lack of iron - duh! Of course they'll be next. But after them, who? The Celts? Carthage? Backtrack for the Europeans?

And during this time, should I just keep cranking out the horsemen/knights, or is there some infrastructure I absolutely should NOT put off until later?

Thanks to everyone for helping make me stronger,
YHWH

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Be the big, fat, evil, Machiavellian bastard. That is fun for me, YMMV.

This is what my soul yearns to do. But it never seems to work out in Civ. Sure, selling them techs so they're broke is one thing. But pitting the civs against each other: I can never seem to pit one AI against the other in a long, meaningless, crippling war. Typically, my "Machiavellian Scheming" just results in one AI eventually swallowing the other up...

Maybe I'm just not a good enough civ player yet. But, I do think that, to a certain extent, there's only so much diplomatic manipulation you can do in the game.

But I am more than open to suggestions, especially if you have some vis-a-vis my current game.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

One quick question: how many turns do y'all expect I might get (under Republic) before war weariness sets in, assuming I declare war? (another related question might be, any sure fire ways to get the Eygptians to attack me?)

YHWH

It will not be all that long, if you start the wars. You really need to get them to start them, unless you plan on ending them quickly.

To me, you cannot plan on ending them quickly, unless you can wipe them out in less than 10 -12 turns. I say that as, you cannot count on them making peace, no matter how much you are stomping them. Often they will just not acknowledge me for many many turns.
This is why I nearly alway force them into starting it.
If they start it, I can be in war for almost as long as I like. I may have to do some entertaining, if it really drags on, say scores of turns. This sometimes happens when I have run into lots of MPP packs and you just keep trigger another war.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I can never seem to pit one AI against the other in a long, meaningless, crippling war. Typically, my "Machiavellian Scheming" just results in one AI eventually swallowing the other up...

Maybe I'm just not a good enough civ player yet. But, I do think that, to a certain extent, there's only so much diplomatic manipulation you can do in the game.

You have a point, in that it can not always be done and it can go haywire. The best way to avoid it is to not get too many in the action against a civ that is not very strong. So if you have the second or even the strongest civ coming at you, then you can safely get others to join. It is not likely that it will be eliminated by the others and you can back off. It is when you are in a fight with the second tier civs, it is dangerous. They can collapse if too many or another strong civ gets in the fun. Also it is risky when they are in close to one another.
The weakest one are the hard ones for me and I will not get others to join, unless I want to ensure they do not come in against me, but it can get out of hand either way. If I go it alone, the others may join them and trigger MPP's.

[Arrian]

One thing about being a Machiavellian Bastard - it's best to be a Monarchy. That way you can just up and declare war on people at will, and organize alliances and whatnot. You can stay in a perpetual war (much of which, if you choose, can be phoney war) and drag the AIs down into Monarchy (and later, Communism, for them anyway) with you.

I've never really done that, even when I could have. Hmm.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Any last minute thoughts before I go off to fight those Osiris-worshipping bastards re: getting THEM to declare war on ME?

I might just have to go with good ole' Monarchy... tried, tested and true...

[Nor Me]

Stick with Republic. Just make peace when entertainment at 50% won't keep your core cities happy. That wastes less production less than more anarchy.

The AIs you'd want to drag down are off the continent so you don't need to worry about that now.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Eh... I switched to Monarchy... I'm going to have to take on Carthage, which has about 20 cities, real soon. They have NO IRON, but they do have one source of Saltpeter... they're only a few turns from Gunpowder... I have about 30 knights on the border, ready to seize Nora (which is the city with saltpeter), but after that, crapola... it's going be a long and very bloody war. But between a. Wanting to put down my fellow Industrious-Commercialists, b. Wanting to keep them from upgrading their armed forces, and c. The fact that they're almost guaranteed to build either Sistine's, Leo's, or BOTH... I pretty much have to take them on.

But I certainly regret not building my acquducts, libraries and marketplaces much earlier.

[Arrian]

Well, you will trigger their GA, so they will build a Wonder or two for you That's the upside.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Arrian
Well, you will trigger their GA, so they will build a Wonder or two for you That's the upside.

I know. Isn't that sick? Oh well. I can probably do it... it's just going to take a long time with many potential reverses.

Still, I did get to move my capital down to Memphis, so now I have two productive cores. Maybe I'll bring the Celts on board and get their GA over with.

[infoscott]

The French rock!!!

To understand the much maligned Musketeer is to understand the power of the French civ.

-- The secret is in Gunpowder --

How many of you who play the Romans make that plucky UU, the Legionaire, prove its worth well through the Middle Ages? The unit works because of its versatility, it has a moderate to very strong attack (depending on the Age) and an excellent defense. Toward the beginning of the Industrial Age it can be used to quell resisters in conquered cities and stuck in forts to make attacks while exercising Zone of Control (and act as fort backup if your Rifleman take massive hits). With a little terrain bonus they can stand up to all but Cavalry. With a little advantage their attack 3 can still take out Hoplites, Pikemen, Knights, and Cavalry, but are stopped dead by Riflemen. They are cheap to make either via Warrior upgrades or straight out building.

Yes, Musketeers are much more expensive to build than Legionaires, and you only get one more point defense over them. But Musketeers upgrade from Spearmen/Pikemen and upgrade through Riflemen to Mech Infantry, whereas Legionaires are the end of the road for that path.

The trick in effectively using Musketeers is to think of them as "flip-flopped knights". They defend better than attack, but under the right advantageous conditions they attack very well (as do Impi warriors), and with the French Comm/Ind economy you can afford to put a _lot_ of them out in the field. And Musketeers need be used in a combined arms strategy, they won't work in a rushing strategy, which seems to be the favorite among warmongers.

So Musketeers absolutely should be used in the field with Catapults and Knights. Co-locating musketeers and catapults will blunt or stop most rush attacks, and fortified Musketeers can be used to channel attackers along likely avenues of approach. Knights that retreat can easily be mopped up on the next turn by surviving Musketeers, where the outcome is not so certain with Musketmens' attack two. Mopping up is even easier when defending the home turf along that road network the Industrious workers built on French soil (hint!). Roads and shifting Musketeers can grind an attacking enemy down if you have judiciously built your cities a few tiles away from your shared borders. A knight contingent is kept for softening/retreat and then protected by Musketeers used to screen the injured horsies. And when the heavy forces are decimated, you'll here "Haw haw haw" a lot as you drill the remaining longbowmen and swordsmen followup troops.

Since the well constructed combined arms French army works better on defense than offense, it makes the French civ an ideal builder civ. Use more Spearmen early in the game for fortifications in cities, hilltops, and forts. The industrious workers will be kept busy using attack/defend road networks, roads through rough defensible terrain, and forts. When engineering is discovered create forest tiles with forts for strategically placed defense points and picket lines. Those well developed tiles will not only bolster defense, but give the French economy a huge boost without as much need for an early ancient era GA or Relgious/Scientific building discount. Early mined terrain can also be used to build forts, harbors, marketplaces, etc,, at an effective 'discount'.

If going on the offense, use hordes of Musketeers like marching army ants to pillage the countryside and starve enemy cities into submission.

-- Ralphing with Commercial --

Avoiding corruption in the early Ancient period is one of the more underappreciated advantages of the Commercial trait. It doesn't take too many steps away from the capital until a newly formed city produces one shield instead of two. But that initial radius is extended with Commercial, making many early Ancient cities twice as productive as other civs. The trick is NOT to rex (rapidly expand) at the very beginning, but to make a tighter cluster of highly productive cities and then rapidly expand from there.

My first clump is about five to six cities spaced two to three tiles apart. Two cities are production camps and the others will be made permanent with buildings. The cities share bonus and mined tiles depending on which city needs the productivity the most at th moment. You should have enough shield productivity to avoid building granaries for your settler generators and your density will avoid the initial need for temples to shore up national boundaries. Get by with regular troops and only build one barracks to turn out veteran Spearmen. Those first cities should outproduce most other civs in coin and units.

If your borders do get stretched out and other civs sneak through, don't worry too much. When you catch up on building culture structures and keep a decent sized standing army, those vagabonds can either be flipped or invaded when the French economy picks up steam. They should be dealt with by the time Musketeers are available.

-- Great Library, the Cash Generator --

Great Library is an absolute must for a French builder civ. Not only do you set your research to 0-10%, but also you sell some of the choice techs to civs that haven't traded them yet. You stockpile the treasury to the brim while building a horde of spearmen and horsemen. Upgrade the initial warriors to swordsmen at the first opportunity, even the regular units. Only make enough swordsmen for counterpunching an attack and to make your army appear strong to other civs for diplomatic purposes. The real punch will come later when the spearmen are upgraded.

Also bleed off the excess cash as quickly as possible in upgrades, embassies, rush building in Monarchy/Republic, and political favors. Too much cash will tempt an aggressive civ, and you want to have a roaring economy by the time the GL expires. Of course you'll be researching Invention/Gunpowder heavily while the other civs are racing towards education to expire your GL. By the time it does expire, you'll have one or two extra techs to pimp and maintain your tech lead. The Babs and Greeks will be your two biggest challengers in the tech race through the Middle Ages.

-- Other Great Wonders --

Avoid them in the ancient age, but seek them aggressively in the Middle Ages. It probably won't matter if a Great Wonder or a UU conflict triggers a Golden Age; either will kick in at a time when permanent cities are established and most building structures will become available. (Cities that can no longer produce buildings should round out the remaining need for horsies and then stockpile Pikemen/Musketeers.)

-- Cultural Champions, Not Just the Babs --

I'm in the middle of a near-win culturally, partly by setting up Paris as a "Culture City" similar to a Science City or a Production city. Monarch game; Ancient Age scored Great Library and Hanging Gardens, and Medieval scored JSBach's, Copernicus, Newtons, and most importantly, Shakespeare's Theater. Shakespeare's wasn't scored early enough to make it venerable in the 1900s, but I have scored that in other games. The net result is this city is sitting at over 13,000 culture points in the later 1700s, generating 89 points per turn, and could garner a cultural win by the one city alone (barring future wars) by the late 1800s. All of this was without GL rushes, in fact my first GL was during the modern age and the first Wonder built with a GL was the Apollo Program. The game is on a huge map, and at 86,000 culture points I'll probably win in about 35 turns. Because all my tiles are improved and I have enough cash to rush build, all cities are generating culture at the max rate for the building availability. I can't stress it enough that early improved tiles + cash generation + income from tech sales = an ability to accomplish most game goals through being rich in resources.

- Scott

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

A very thoughtful post. Just FMI (For my Information), as I notice you play huge maps - I do too, pretty much exclusively - how many opponents do you select, for that strat?

It's too late for me now to really use musketeers in this effective way... but I'm curious to know for future reference.