Are captured workers slaves?

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Arrian
Catt,

By the way, my example is old (hence the somewhat fuzzy recollection). Pre-PTW. Probably pre-CivIII 1.29. So if it was a bug, it's possible it has since been fixed.
...

I've quickly skimmed the 1.29f readme, and the only reference is to an AI loop bug for workers... So maybe they did. I'll look into this fully and post again when I've got a definite answer on my saves.

[inca911]

Originally posted by Arrian
FP is done next to my capitol, so now I just need 1 more leader for a Palace move (York looks about right....). --Arrian

Not critical, just curious:
I'm not understanding why you'd invest shields into the FP only to burn a leader later to effectively do the same thing with a Palace move. Your FP must not be very close to your capital then. So how far away from your capital is the FP and what size map is this?

[Arrian]

Standard map, continents. 4 civs total on my continent (Me, France to my NE, Russia to my S, and England SW of Russia).

Typically I would build the FP further away from my original capitol than I did in this game. But I didn't end up taking a bite out of the French (just whacked their settler teams and loose units) so I didn't have much room. My FP was built right next to my original capitol (5 tiles away, in fact).

A lot of times, the original capitol location is off-center (too close to the coast, basically), so that building the FP 1-2 cities away and then moving the palace results in a better corruption situation. In this case, Berlin was pretty much ok, but having the FP 1 city to its NE will help make the French cities I'm about to capture somewhat productive.

I did not have a leader handy, having blown the two I got early on the Pyramids and the GL. Further, I didn't own the city I wanted the Palace (or FP) in, nor did I own the ring of cities around it. I was building up the forces I needed to take that, and knew it was going to take a little while.

Building the FP still helped my empire's corruption a bit, even though it was right next to my capitol. The capitol cannot flip. I wasn't sure if I was going to wipe out the English or not. Thus, I wanted to move my Palace to England.

As it turned out, I did wipe the English out. I got the leader I needed for the Palace move, and then 2 more.

In this particular game, just rushing the FP in England would have worked fine. But the setup I have now is in fact slightly better, and I've really gotten used to building the FP manually near the original "core" and then moving my Palace via leader(s). It gives me the chance to position each perfectly.

-Arrian

p.s. Current status - approaching the end of the middle ages. England & Russia wiped out. I just upgraded 31 knights to Cavalry. The French are at the very beginning of the middle ages, and thus do not have musketeers. They never will. I've met the rest of the world via suicide caravel (3rd try). Egypt, Rome, Greece & Carthage have their own continent. Egypt is the big dog, currently in their GA and nearly even with me in tech. Rome is down to 2 cities and will most likely get wiped out by Cleo. Greece & Egypt just made peace. Greece & Carthage appear about equal, trailing the Egyptians. Navigation has not yet been discovered, so I have a legit shot at the Deception (which is good, since I was really a bastard in ancient times).

[Aeson]

When you capture a city and build a Settler from it, it has the nationality tag of the population that it uses. I'm not sure, but I think the same holds true for Workers. Perhaps it's these types of Workers that get listed as 'captured' even though they were hand built?

[Arrian]

Yes, it's the same for workers, Aeson. That I remember. Hmm, perhaps they are paid, though... is that what you're saying? That could be the answer!

-Arrian

[inca911]

Originally posted by Arrian
A lot of times, the original capitol location is off-center (too close to the coast, basically), so that building the FP 1-2 cities away and then moving the palace results in a better corruption situation.

That makes sense. I hate those peninsular starting points but typically I only move my capital later once my first capital is built up nicely. I've always felt that early short distance capital moves were cost-prohibitive. I'll have to try an early move some time. Of course, early move vs. getting Pyramids is how I've considered this in the past.

[Arrian]

inca911,

It's not an early palace move. It's an early FP build, leaving the palace where it is to begin with while building up the (now enlarged) core and the military. THEN, during the fight for control of the continent, the hope is to get a leader and move the Palace.

I don't move my palace by actually building the Palace. Takes too long. Nope, I admit it: I bank on getting a leader for that. Most of the time, I manage to get one (or more ).

-Arrian

[inca911]

Originally posted by Arrian
I admit it: I bank on getting a leader for that. Most of the time, I manage to get one (or more ).

-Arrian

Warmonger!

[Arrian]

Guilty as charged.

-Arrian

[Aramis]

This thread is really fascinating. I haven't kept captured workers in a long, long time. I turn them into outposts, airfields, radar, or send them off to the capital, where I sell or give them away. Sometimes I just kill them. I do these things because even with replaceable parts and democracy they are much too slow. I need 2 of them to do something 1 of mine can do. And it is a lot easier to build more of my own.
Curiosity now will lead me to experiment a bit with them. I eagerly await someone posting the answer to the upkeep question. If I have to pay for them I don't want them.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Rob_S
I eagerly await someone posting the answer to the upkeep question. If I have to pay for them I don't want them.

You definitely do not have to pay for them in the vast majority of circumstances -- that's what makes slaves so valuable.

I think the only facts at issue in the thread are: Are there any circumstances in which foreign workers require upkeep, and if so, what are the circumstances? Any answer of "yes, there is upkeep in some circumstances" would probably be applicable to very limited circumstances, since it's pretty clear that slaves "normally" (never?) require upkeep.

In fact, I do the opposite of what you do -- if I want to build a radar tower or build a city's population by adding workers, I'll almost always use my own workers -- I get the desired effect, and I lose the 1 gpt upkeep cost at the same time. By the end of a game in which I have captured lots of slaves I will have only slaves left -- all my own workers would have been added back to cities or otherwise used. Only if I have already "used" all my native workers will slaves take on that role, and if I can't spare a worker to accomplish my goal, it's time to build a few more workers.

Catt

[Aramis]

Catt--
I see your point, but remain (somewhat) in opposition. I do not mind paying upkeep for my own workers due to the speed at which they work. If in any circumstance I must pay for a captured worker, then, from a pragmatic point of view, they are an unnecessary expense. I have long assumed that expense was there. If I am wrong and I am not paying for them, then how you use them is a model I should try.
One thing I have never done is add them to a city's population. Again I made an assumption--that I'd have cranky immigrants.
I'm going to play around with some saved games and find the answer to the upkeep question. If I've been wrong, then it means a major shift in my strategy. Thanks for your info. --R

[kring]

Originally posted by Catt


I think the only facts at issue in the thread are: Are there any circumstances in which foreign workers require upkeep, and if so, what are the circumstances? Any answer of "yes, there is upkeep in some circumstances" would probably be applicable to very limited circumstances, since it's pretty clear that slaves "normally" (never?) require upkeep.

Catt

One additional possible explanation would be any Workers that you created from a city that you captured or culture flipped to you. Any Workers that you create from a city in those instances may be foreign. They wouldn't have been purchased from another civ or captured from another civ, but their nationality would show as foreign, wouldn't it? I am not near my Civ 3 computer so I can't check it out right now.

[Jaybe]

Rob_S,
After Repl Parts, but if not in democracy, 1 worker + 1 slave builds a road in one turn and a mine/rail in 2 turns. Your method would require 2 workers (or democracy).

IF you micromanage your worker force, then the combo is the way to go.

[Aramis]

Originally posted by Jaybe

After Repl Parts, but if not in democracy, 1 worker + 1 slave builds a road in one turn and a mine/rail in 2 turns. Your method would require 2 workers (or democracy).
IF you micromanage your worker force, then the combo is the way to go.

Jaybe--
Yes, I guess (I'll take your word), but I've never played a game where I haven't been a democracy by the time I get Repl parts. So I'm used to 1 worker, 1 tile, 1 rail, 1 turn. Dem+repl parts with captured workers=2 turns. Not cost effective IF i'm paying for the upkeep of the captured workers. VERY cost effective if I'm not, as Catt has pointed out. Which is why I've got to suspend my current game a bit and start checking out these captured workers (through messing around with previous saves).

I do micro-manage my workers, except occasionally I'll automate some to clean up pollution. Sometimes I micro-manage my cities, too--makes for very long games.