Spies...who needs them?????

[BigDork]

Hi everybody...

badams gave me the idea for this thread, so thanks.

Sorry if this is an idea that has already been brought up. I quickly looked back in the strat forum to about Oct. and didn't see anything about this. Just a quick thread about propoganda. So us newer players really haven't had a discussion about this.

Is it worth researching espionage? I think the last time I actually researched espionage myself was a long, long time ago when I tried to research everything. Now I just kinda get it if it comes up and the deal is good.

So what does everybody use their spies for? My most common use for spies is getting opposing civs to declare war on me. I believe that I read somewhere that this reduces war weariness. Please, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, it'll save me some money. My only real other use is to know just how big the other militaries are.

I think I've stolen two or three techs in my time. I only tried propoganda once and it failed. But I was trying to start a war, it wasn't to actually try to get a city to flip. I've tried to sabotage production a few times but not too many. Usually just important stuff.

As always, any and all help is appreciated. Thanks

BigD

[Dominae]

The problem with Espionage is that there are too many better options at the start of the Industrial age. So, no, I do not think it is a good idea to research Espionage yourself. The AI seems to pay a pretty penny for it, but in my games it always ends up researching it before me.

But this is not to say that Espionage is not useful. It is not a good idea to sit on a huge treasury. The obvious option is to rush improvements like Courthouses in your distant towns, but I think you can do better with spy missions. Stealling a tech from the AI is really quite useful, since you're essentially buying it from them for nothing, at the same cost if you choose "Safely". In some games I've exposed enemy spies because they were stealing techs right from under my nose, but this does not happen very often. The same goes with the other mission types. Steal tech is definitely the most useful.

You usually want to use spy missions in those games where you're relatively close to the AI in power, or weaker. AU206 comes to mind as a great opportunity for Espionage. Unfortunately, most games are "decided" by the Industrial age, meaning that you're ahead at this point and are just looking to finish things off. In these frequent cases bypassing Espionage is not a big deal.


Dominae

[BigDork]

Dom...

Is there any hints as to if there is an enemy spy stealing techs and such or were you just guessing?

BigD

[Dominae]

Guessing. When the Germans obtain 3 techs every 10 turns, I know something is wrong. Plus I've learned that if the AI has a big treasury, it is coded to use some of it one spy missions if these are available. An easy way to avoid this is to make sure they never get rich, which is easier said that done.


Dominae

[Konquest02]

@BigD: Was this thread up because of my AU 204 experience?

I usually research other techs as I have more important things to do in the early industrial times. I try to get it from the AI either by extorsion or trade...

I've used espionnage 1 time and I found it overpriced for what it gave me; I don't use it much anymore. I try to have spies in big civs to get an idea of their military, but that's about it...

--Kon--

[BigDork]

Kon...

Yeah, actually it is because of that. Made me start thinking about spies and espionage, so I started this thread. Just trying to pick everyone's brains as much as possible.

BigD

[Theseus]

I don;t know jack about it. Never even really try, although I'd love to add it to my bag 'o tricks if someone lays out some guidelines.

The one thing I remember was a screenshot Catt put up from one of the AU games, where the AI civs just went insane with espionage...

[Jaybe]

Having a spy in an opposing civ so you see their army strength in the F3 is usually not necessary, but it IS interesting and "entertaining". I prefer to do it that way, though I rarely use the other espionage functions.

[player1]

Getting tech much cheaper then normally is great feature.
(it can happen in industrial and modern era)

And spying enemy cities in times of war too.

[badams52]

I don't usually like to repeat myself, but...Aside from getting spies, I don't see the advantage of espionage and I'm usually racing to war/building type techs with my UP game to get to the end game faster...spaceship, tanks, etc. Espionage is a dead end. If the AI researches it, I might grab it from them when I'm trading techs to syphen-off their gpt.

[Dominae]

badams52, since you repeated yourself, I may as well repeat myself too! The games when you're either at UP or at least clearly in the (tech) lead are not the ones where Espionage will be useful. But the ones where there are still a few KIAs giving you some trouble, you can definitely make good use of spy missions.


Dominae

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Dominae
... But the ones where there are still a few KIAs giving you some trouble, you can definitely make good use of spy missions.

But ... but then I would be too fearful of starting a war by trying (and failing) to plant a spy!!

(I know, underneath it all, if I am not ready I'm sorta spineless )
What do you think this is, some kind of GAME or somethin'?

[Catt]

This is purely anecdotal, from a much too small sample size -- certainly no testing or other experiements fo any kind and not even having a gander at the editor (don;t think there's anything it could tell us anyway):

Does anyone get the sense that attempts at planting a spy in PTW seem to succeed more often than they did under vanilla Civ 3? Just the "plant spy" mission, not any of the actual espionage missions.

Catt

[Dominae]

I would not know, I rarely use spies!!

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
I would not know, I rarely use spies!!

Me either But when I have done so under PTW (generally after the game is "won") it seems to me that I succeed more often than I expect to. Maybe I was just so scarred by the repeated war declarations spy planting would produce under Civ 3 when I (perhaps?) planted spies more often, that my current judgment is out-of-whack.

On the related research point, since I usually bypass Nationalism if the circumstances allow, it should go without saying that I basically never research Espionage. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I made it through the "Industrial Corridor" to Mass Production without finding at least one AI that had researched Espionage (and then traded it around).

Catt