E-REX or 2S-REX ?

[Mountain Sage]

Hi Folks,

This is my first post on Apolyton. The Internet gets even available in the Swiss Alps javascript:smilie(''). I hope this message gets through.

But before the question of the day (E-REX or 2S-REX ?), just a few words about my playing style: I bought Civ III in December 2001 (Merry Xmas for me) and I played about 20 games so far.
What? Only 20 games over more than a year when we play 20 in a month?
Well, yes.
The reasons are (in alphabetical order): books, D&D, friends, hobbies, job, kids, sports, wife etc. etc.

Then I play only on HUGE maps, 8 Civs random, 50% archipelago, 50% random. Climate and Earth age always random. Barbarians set at sedentary. Sissy, I know javascript:smilie('').

I am a convinced pacifist, since I prefer to build my Empire on the sweat, endurance and hard labour of my citizens instead of on mountains of skulls and lakes of blood (nicely put, isn’t it?). javascript:smilie('')

Logically, my favourite Civ is… the French.

I managed now to win 8 or 10 games at Monarch, but before tackling the higher levels (Emperor, Deity, Overgod) I need some assistance from more experienced players (meaning all of you), even if I read most of your posts.

Well, I hope you are still with me and not javascript:smilie('')

Now, to the question of the day: E-REX or 2S-REX at higher levels ?

What is E-REX? E stands for Extreme and that means that except for the Capitol, which builds Wonders (or tries to), and the second city, which builds first another Wonder, all other cities build a Settler every time they reach size 3 and go on building a Settler once the reach size 3 again, with no exceptions, until you run out of unsettled land.

Here is an example: in my last play (Huge map, Monarch, French, 8 Civ random, Earth random), I started on a VERY isolated continent. After losing 8 galleys to the well-known ‘treacherous waters’, I gave up exploring and feeding the fish. For my dedication (to the fish), the AI gave me a bonus shark-shaped food tile, probably in recognition of all the poor sailors’ lost lives. javascript:smilie('')

In 130 BC, I finished settling my continent (which happened to be the biggest one) with following statistics:

Size (number of cities): 7 (1), 6 (5), 5 (4), 4 (4) for 14 cities with size 4> out of 27, for a total of 73 Pop points.
Wonders: missed the Pyramids by 5 turns and the Great Lighthouse by 2 turns, bagged the Great Library (which was of course completely useless!).
Gold: 2’000+
Science: I beelined for Map Making, then Education, then Construction, then Republic.
With science set to 4 turns, I just got all the Ancient Times techs in 130 BC.
In the meantime, the Egyptians finished the Sistine Chapel. javascript:smilie('')

Then I reloaded my game (I always save 3950 BC) and started with my 2S-REX, meaning that every city except the Capitol, which builds only 1 Settler and then goes after the Pyramids, and the second city, which builds first another Wonder, all other cities build 2 Settlers and then something else (but no more Settlers).

In 130 BC I had following cities: size (number of cities) 9 (1), 8 (3), 7 (3), 6 (4), 5 (1), 4 (7) for a total of 19 cities out of 25 and 111 Pop points.
Gold: 1’650
Science: as with E-REX
Wonders: missed the Pyramids by 5 turns but got the Great Lighthouse (I cheated a bit from the previous game, did not build a Warrior first javascript:smilie('')) and the Great Library (which was again completely useless!).

So the difference between E-REX and 2D-REX was 38 Pop, which means more than 5 size-7 cities or on average 1,5 more Pop per city.

This is my Sage advice and conclusion from my 20-odd games experience. javascript:smilie('')

But the most important was that half of ‘my’ continent was still not settled. If I were not in the middle of nowhere (a big ocean, in fact), I would have being forced to go to war (imagine!) to clear it from illegal trespassers.

The E-REX approach looks like a faster way to create Settlers and occupy the free land, but it has a big drawback: your cities are smaller, which means lesser shields (and gold), which means that I am usually at a big disadvantage for the Middle Ages Wonders (even if I pre-build the Palace), or city improvements.

Now, the question of the day is: what is the ‘best’ strategy at higher levels? The E-REX, the 2D-REX or something else?


P.S. I finished my two games, just to see the differences emerging from a common beginning. If somebody is interested, let me know, I can post them.

[Mountain Sage]

Mountain sage smilies

Well, as you can see, the Smilies didn't get down from the Swiss Alps after all....

[Capt Dizle]

What city spacing did you use. Seems that for all efforts by firaxis, whether SP or MP, all one really needs to do is infinitely found cities as quickly as possible and pack them as close as possible. Build military units and nothing else and you win every time easily.

[Mountain Sage]

Since I play on Huge maps, I have plenty of space, so my cities are usally 4-5 tiles apart, on the best terrain available.

I agree with you that you could easely win with a E-REX strategy, getting rather quickly 30-40 cities and then building nothing but military units, but do not forget that:

1. A military Civ could do the same (and they are better at military than my 'poor' French ).
2. If you're on an isolated continent and miss the Great Lighthouse (and even if you get it!), you won't be able to start a war until Navigation,
3. I don't fancy massive slaughter (sorry, military conquest), so I prefer to win without too much bloodshed (none if possible).

It is however true that on Huge maps, if you do not fill ALL the empty land, the AI will do it for you and you will be faced with HUGE Empires at your doors.

Smiley check:

[Catt]

It's very hard to form an opinion and share it with you, Mountain Sage. Your settings - huge world but only 8 civs - makes for a lot of wide open spaces. I would have to play many games on these settings to get a feel for it -- as it is I'm having trouble abstracting the process and forming a conclusion without actually playing it.

Catt

[eewolf]

mountain sage,

you mention a few times having the GL but it being useless because you are all by your lonesome. this is true but if you wait, a flood of advances can come your way.

i recently played a game (babs, regent, standard, continents, 8 civs) and was all by myself. i didn't get the lighthouse but nabbed the GL. i continued researching (avoiding education) until i ran out of things to study. i then put the science slider on 0 and with no scientists had no research at all.

i knew i was falling way behind as i heard about copernicus being built. then smith's was built and i knew i would be having visitors soon. lo and behold a chinese galley shows up and i make contact. i have a pile of gold and i make contact with everyone and get their maps. i don't buy education from anyone, of course.

press enter and a flood of advances are suddenly mine. and all my core cities are ready to build universities and wonders. i nabbed newton's and i was ahead of everyone in tech going into the industrial.

while this may not work as well on higher levels, you should be able to use the GL to at least get within 1 or 2 techs of the tech leader. and you can use that extra gold for buying techs.

anyway, here is to your peaceful game,

eewolf

[Master Zen]

I find being peaceful doesn't help me much on emperor/deity. Enemy civs have a tendency to be a pain in the @$$. So even if I cannot expand anymore, I do expansion within, making smaller cities already within my borders and launching wars against my neighbors.

The real deal behind cities in the early age is that most won't reach size 7 without aqueducts so is it really such a drawback to have many small cities? I don't think so. These small cities can be used as unit or settler factories while other cities (for example those located near good terrain) are built up.

I'd go with more cities, no matter what the size. But that's just me.

[Mountain Sage]

eewolf,

Your strategy of researching everything except Education and then wait for Navigation, if you are isolated, to make contacts and then grab all the Techs is certainly sound.

Unfortunately for me, I tend to beeline to Economics and then Democracy, so I have to get Education fairly soon.

Why?

Firts of all, since the French are Commercial, I play their strength. Marketplaces + Banks + Smith's Trading Co. + Wall Street = LOTS of money and this pays ALL the expenses (military, improvements, research etc.)

Then, I have the feeling (could somebody confirm this?) that the AI tends to research the 'lower' part of the Tech tree (from Gunpowder to Magnetism etc.). Therefore, the AI is more willing to trade 2 or even 3 Techs for Economics and Democracy. Which is a bargain.

Lastly, most of the Civs switching to Democracy loose 4-5 turns, which is another Tech researched for me.

Anyway, I will keep it in mind and try it next time I feel like Robinson Crusoe.

Catt,

I understand there are not many playing on Huge maps with only 8 Civs.
Don't worry, I will try te prepare a 'manual' on how to play the French on Monarch on Huge maps.
You will only have then to follow my instructions step by step...


Master Zen,

I agree with you that specially on Huge maps, you'll have to go for more cities, even if you prefer to stop. Since the resources and luxuries are spaced farther apart, there is always a goodie 'on the other side of the hill'.

I just wanted to point out the differences between a forced expansion and a more 'leisurely' one. I read several threads about Settler/Warrior/Worker factories, but most imply that you set only a few of them and still keep pace with the AI on Emperor/Deity.

Is it correct or is E-REX the only way to keep pace with the AI on Emperor/Deity?

If it's true that being paceful does not help much on Emperor/Deity, then maybe I should go back to Chieftain

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

If it's true that being paceful does not help much on Emperor/Deity, then maybe I should go back to Chieftain

It's not an issue of if being peaceful helps but rather how much more difficult it is to pull off a successful peaceful game. Since everyone's style is different, I would say it's ultimately up to you to see if peace works

[Catt]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Then, I have the feeling (could somebody confirm this?) that the AI tends to research the 'lower' part of the Tech tree (from Gunpowder to Magnetism etc.). Therefore, the AI is more willing to trade 2 or even 3 Techs for Economics and Democracy. Which is a bargain.

In my experience, the AI's tend to go as far as gunpowder before beelining for Astronomy and (of all things) Navigation. Banking and Economics will usually precede Metallurgy / Magnetism / Theory of Gravity. Printing Press is usually a laggard -- many players research PP on a slow basis and then trade it for a bunch of other techs. When possible, I like to grab Economics, secure Adam Smith's through a pre-build, and trade Econ just before Smith's for some of the techs I skipped.

If it's true that being paceful does not help much on Emperor/Deity, then maybe I should go back to Chieftain

I play Emperor 90% of the time -- the other 10% being Monarch or Deity. I have been experimenting a bit with largely peaceful game approaches -- willing to conquer land when faced with aggression, but generally holding my offensive forces in check and not running roughshod over foes, even would I can. I've been having fun playing with trade and diplomacy and "being a builder" again. At Emperor at any rate it is usually pretty easy to play and win peacefully if you choose. I haven't done this at Deity - just don't enjoy it as much in general.

Catt

[badman]

Peaceful games on Emperor are so much fun. I just hate moving around hundreds of units.
I haven't yet tried playing a game without building any units (but I like playing with the self-imposed rule not to move any military units out of my territory) because I always get attacked.
In order not to get attacked a single time you have to be small and visit your neighbours almost every round in order to trade something with them and that gets very boring too.
I don't dare to play on Deity either but punkbass showed us that you can even win on Diety without capturing any cities.

[nbarclay]

On those settings, you really ought to be building a granary in any city near your palace that has decent production. (Set research to 100% for Pottery the moment you start, and on a huge map, you'll have to make sure you don't start on the granary in your capital too soon.) That does two things for you. First, it helps those cities crank out settlers and up to twice as fast. And second, once you finish REXing, the cities will get up to size faster. (Of course if you get the Pyramids, that takes care of the second part, but not the first. And don't count on getting the Pyramids on Emperor!)

Also, if your capital has food bonuses, you ought to seriously consider using it as a settler pump instead of as a wonder-building city in the early game.

(Edit: You might call my strategy a G-REX: cities with sufficient production build a granary and then crank out settlers as quickly as possible.)

Nathan

[Mountain Sage]

Catt,

Thanks for your insights about the techs the AI researches first, but specially thanks a lot for letting me know that somebody wants to play ‘a builder again’ at Emperor and still manages to win.

I was almost thinking that the Dark Side got all Civvers.


Badman,

The same for you, but then, shouldn’t you change your name a bit?

I also contact other Civs almost every round to keep them happy with me (or less aggressive). Some of them are willing to buy my World Map for 1 gold, which is 1 gold less from them. For the others which are not interested, I ‘graciously’ offer them the 1 gold previously won, in the hope of surviving another turn (at least I get thanked).


nbarclay,

Good advice!

In fact, I started yesterday my first game on Emperor. Again, the AI put me on a continent all by myself, with two cattle tiles, a river, a hill, spices 3 tiles away and a goodie-hut also 4 tiles away! (first time I wanted to the AI ). And imagine what happened when my influence expanded? I got Pottery!

Since I didn’t expect to get any Ancient Times Wonders anyway at Emperor, I built a Granary after my first Settler and then just pumped out Settlers with all the other cities (I went for a E-REX as soon as I discovered I was on a continent).
Next time I’ll heed your advice and build a Granary after my 2 Warriors and before my 1st Settler.

By the way, things are doing fine, except that I am ways behind in Techs (as expected) and that I had to beef up my defences (3 Spearmen in each coastal town, a ‘light cavalry’ reserve in the making). My closest neighbours are the Persians and the Babylonians…