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  • #46
    Some fun facts and figures with granaries. I had a look at some simplified models, just to see what kinds of factors are important.

    First time around, I assumed that all cities get to work tiles producing 2 food, 1 shield, 1 trade. One scenario has the first city building a granary, the other has the city doing the size 1-3 settler oscillation.

    The city without the granary is simple. It has a 20 turn cycle, producing 20 shields worth of units (2 warriors, 1 spearman or 1 archer, depending on your techs), 1 settler and 50 trade. So after 60 turns you have accumulated 60 shield of units, 3 settlers, and 150 trade.

    With the granary, I decided to produce 3 warriors to start with (that 3rd one only delays granary production by 3 turns in practice). I then oscillate between sizes 3-5 for settler production (you could get a second settler out more quickly, but this is just illustrative). Settler no. 3 appears in turn 61, only 1 turn later than in the no-granary situation, at which point you have also prouced 100 shields of units (in batches of 30, 20, 20, 10, 20). In the first 60 turns, you produce 210 trade (and that's after allowing for trade lost to luxury spending, assuming you have no luxury resources to hand).

    Second scenario: assume we have 1 shielded grassland available, producing 2/2/1, and all other sqaures are 2/1/1 as per the original scenario.

    Without the granary, the situation is the same, but you get to produce more shields for units. Ironically, some of your settlers may turn up one turn later, depending on how you want to waste shields (either going to wealth for a turn or two when you can't fit anything in before the settler build begins, or fitting a warrior in at the expense of delaying the setller by one turn). Settler 3 still comes along in turn 60 (or 61, possibly 62, depending on how you play it), but you have 100 shields worth of units (in blocks of 40, 30, 30, so a religious civ could fit a temple build in there as well).

    With the granary, settler number 3 appears in turn 52, but with only 70 shields of units (30 at the start for warriors to explore, then 20, 20). In 60 turns you would generate 195 trade and 90 shields.

    Results part 1: Using a single city as a settler pump, with 2 excess food at all times, you are equal or ahead with settler generation by the 3rd settler, and have considerably more trade (gold or science), even if you have to use the luxury slider to control happiness. The amount of shields that can be spent on units is comparable. So you 'break even' in settler production in 50-60 turns.

    On the other hand, you lose out in terms of production from the first new city, by 20 turns in the first scenario, or nearly 10 turns in the second. That's quite a lot of shield production you are giving up. In particular, if you use all cities to churn out settlers as fast as possible, (assuming no granaries in the subsequent cities), then you don't catch up in terms of number of cities until you get to 15-20 (depending on how long you assume it takes a settler to move and found a new city). The REX phase is usually over before you get to that many cities (in my experience, you are doing very well to get 10 cities down without warfare on a large map, Emperor level). Of course that kind of rapid expansion leaves you over exposed to AI invasion, since you don't have resources to spare for much else aside from a few warriors, 1 spearman per city and lots of settlers.

    So, my quick look suggests that the effectiveness of granaries depends to some extent on the excess food to shield ratio. More shields and less food makes granaries more effective. Fewer shields and plentiful food make them comparatively useless in the REX part of the game (since you are limited by the number of shields, not by the amount of food). If you are going for an all out (badly defended) REX then granaries don't help. If you are using one city as a settler pump, then they may, but the most natural settler pumps (high food) don't need them. If you have to use a +2 food city as a settler pump, then it is probably best to build a granary. If you can afford to rush buy a granary, all the better; you get the best of both worlds. It is rather situation dependent though, so get out and explore the world before committing yourself.

    Granaries, of course, are useful after the REX phase too... (and don't forget, the *only* time you can grow too fast is when your city growth is outstripping your ability to develop squares (I've overlooked worker production in this analysis); as long as all your citizens can work developed tiles, the worst you do by having to use entertainers/luxury slider to control happiness is break even, and most of the time you gain some benefit (when compared to keeping your cities below the happiness limit)).

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    • #47
      Whether to start with a Granary or not indeed also depends on whether your worker(s) can keep up with improving the terrain. If the extra citizens are working unimproved tiles, you are probably better off by starting with a settler (or, like I often do, with a second Worker) and take another look after that. If you have a game or a whales tile, to start with Granary may be an excellent idea.
      A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
      Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

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      • #48
        Does everyone participating in this thread agree that only industrial civs should build a granary in the very early game? Some people think that only the Americans are worthy, and able, of starting with a granary. I think that only the Americans should build a granary before their first settler, considering that the map is large enough and there is room for expansion.
        "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
        "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
        "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

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        • #49
          I think anyone with the tech might be presented with a situation that calls for a granary before a settler.
          "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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          • #50
            Originally posted by ducki
            I think anyone with the tech might be presented with a situation that calls for a granary before a settler.
            Only expansionist civs start with pottery. I've done it with expansionist civs that are not industrial. You need two workers to clear the forest for the granary. I think that's costly. I don't think its worth it, because its taking too long to get that first settler out.
            "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
            "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
            "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

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            • #51
              DuncanK,

              You should also consider the advatage of settlers from goody hut: by delaying you first settler you increase the chances of getting one...since I read Aesons scouting thread, I always build the granary first (after 3 or four scouts) and I've never been disappointed
              www.civforum.de

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              • #52
                Depends on the tech rate. If you can get Pottery quickly (20 turns or less) by running 100% science, then the granary first will still work (use a barracks or wonder as a pre-build for the granary). If playing on a huge map where it will take over 30 turns to get pottery, then build a settler first obviously. The babylon deity game that I posted earlier I did not start with pottery and I did not build an extra worker right away.

                You don't always need to clear a forest for the granary (although it is easier if you are industrious). It depends on how many shield-producing squares you have nearby.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by DuncanK


                  Only expansionist civs start with pottery. I've done it with expansionist civs that are not industrial. You need two workers to clear the forest for the granary. I think that's costly. I don't think its worth it, because its taking too long to get that first settler out.
                  Also consider a non-Exp civ getting Pottery from a goody hut, which is the only reason I said it the way I did...

                  ... I think there are plenty of circumstances that warrant a granary before a settler; however, there are so many factors to consider that listing every possible instance would be ludicrous. To name just a couple, a very low food start, a very high luxury start, a start where you get a settler from a hut, a start where you get Pottery from a hut, a huge map with fewer than standard civs.

                  Granted, oftentimes, a granary first is a waste, but there are also many times when it makes sense. You can't make a hard and fast ruling due to the randomness of the game and the vastness of the variables.
                  "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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                  • #54
                    That is why I put a lot of time into the first turns of the game, trying to project all kinds of opening play sequences.
                    Sometimes it takes an hour before I make my first move!
                    A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
                    Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

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                    • #55
                      Thanks for the reply to my post everyone. I think I will try a granary first with some other civs. Still, I'm reluctant to delay the production of my first settler. When it comes down to it 2 cities without granaries is better than 1 city with a granary. In the case of the Americans I can see how you could have 2 cities, one with a granary, where maybe another civ would just have either 2 cities (without granaries) or 1 city with a granary.

                      Mazarin,

                      I will go back and read that thread. Thanx
                      "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                      "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                      "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

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                      • #56
                        hi ,

                        the best is to get a second city near a good food tile asap and get a granary there , ....

                        and start to build settlers at a high rate

                        have a nice day
                        - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                        - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                        WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by panag
                          hi ,

                          the best is to get a second city near a good food tile asap and get a granary there , ....

                          and start to build settlers at a high rate

                          have a nice day
                          I disagree. Cities with good food really don't need a granary. In my first PtW game (ongoing, mentioned elsewhere) I had the good fortune to have a great start position with lots of cows on grassland. Each city with 1 cow and 1 shielded grassland could grow 2 sizes in 14 turns, and would take about 12 turns to build a settler. In that kind of city, a granary is all but useless, since it would take many turns to produce and just knock 2 turns off the settler production time. IMHO the time to build a granary is if your best food city has only 2 excess food, but plenty of shields. You get the most benefity from a granary in a city that can produce sufficient shields for 2 settlers (or more) in the time it takes to grow 2 sizes, since you can halve your settler production time in that case. If you produce between 30 and 60 shields in the time taken to grow 2 sizes then a granary is a marginal improvement for settler production. If you can produce 30 shields or less, a granary is worse than useless.

                          High shields, low food, means granary is useful.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by vulture


                            I disagree. Cities with good food really don't need a granary. In my first PtW game (ongoing, mentioned elsewhere) I had the good fortune to have a great start position with lots of cows on grassland. Each city with 1 cow and 1 shielded grassland could grow 2 sizes in 14 turns, and would take about 12 turns to build a settler. In that kind of city, a granary is all but useless, since it would take many turns to produce and just knock 2 turns off the settler production time. IMHO the time to build a granary is if your best food city has only 2 excess food, but plenty of shields. You get the most benefity from a granary in a city that can produce sufficient shields for 2 settlers (or more) in the time it takes to grow 2 sizes, since you can halve your settler production time in that case. If you produce between 30 and 60 shields in the time taken to grow 2 sizes then a granary is a marginal improvement for settler production. If you can produce 30 shields or less, a granary is worse than useless.

                            High shields, low food, means granary is useful.
                            hi ,

                            well a granary can help to build your settlers faster , ....

                            it just depends where your first couple of cities are , a scout is great to scout around and look for suitable places

                            have a nice day
                            - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                            - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                            WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

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                            • #59
                              Each city with 1 cow and 1 shielded grassland could grow 2 sizes in 14 turns, and would take about 12 turns to build a settler.
                              How do you figure that? 1 settler every 14 turns is the fastest you could build a settler (on average) if it takes 14 turns to get 2 population points.

                              Cow on grassland:
                              Irrigate it and no granary=1 settler/10 turns
                              Irrigate it and granary=settler/6 turns
                              Mine it and no granary=settler/14 turns
                              Mine it and granary=settler/8 turns

                              But in your case, where there are multiple cows for several different cities, then yes, it would be smarter to get all of those other cities set up faster, so each cow can be used right away.

                              If a city is your only high-food city, then a granary will still help, because the other cities that only have +2 food won't help your settler creation much, since they can only build 1 settler/20 turns. As the city gets to size 3-4 it would be picking up more shields also, speeding up the time it takes to build a granary. So it depends if your worker can keep up with the population growth or you have any bonus grassland/forests around.

                              I've tried the granaries a little more, and I think building 1 settler before the granary is better for the high-food city. The second city can build more scouts/warriors to help in your exploration and it lets your worker get caught up in terrain improvements for your capital.

                              In my current game, I have 1 cow on grassland, game on forest, and some bonus grassland tiles in my capital (non-industrious civ). Irrigating the cow, and building a granary the first settler gets delayed by 9 turns. But produces the 3rd settler sooner than if I hadn't built a granary.

                              Building a settler before the granary I was able to use the other city to pump out more scouts. Although, having more improved tiles for my capital to use didn't really shorten the time it took to build a granary except for maybe 1 turn. So by building settler before granary I was behind the granary first build by 1 settler, but I had so much more exploration done.

                              If you can produce 30 shields or less, a granary is worse than useless.
                              I agree on that. I imagine that floodplain cities would have a harder time coming up with the shields. But with cow on grassland starts I don't have a problem at all with having enough shields, provided there are enough bonus grassland around. To build a settler every 6 turns, you just need an average of 5 shields/turn. With an irrigated cow (+4 food), you can spend 2 turns working on a forest and 1 turn not working the forest and still get your 10 food/3 turns if you have a granary. Without a granary, you have to not work the forest, because that slows your growth (5 turns at +4 food to get your 20 food).

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by vultute

                                Each city with 1 cow and 1 shielded grassland could grow 2 sizes in 14 turns, and would take about 12 turns to build a settler
                                Originally posted by Bamspeedy


                                How do you figure that? 1 settler every 14 turns is the fastest you could build a settler (on average) if it takes 14 turns to get 2 population points.

                                Cow on grassland:
                                Irrigate it and no granary=1 settler/10 turns
                                Irrigate it and granary=settler/6 turns
                                Mine it and no granary=settler/14 turns
                                Mine it and granary=settler/8 turns
                                Possibly I explained it badly (or I'm missing your point entirely here...), but I meant that If it takes 14 turns to get enough food for a settler, and 12 turns to generate enough shields, then it takes 14 turns to build a settler. If we add a granary to the mix, then it takes 8 turns to get the food, but still 12 turns to generate enough shields, so it takes 12 turns to generate a settler. Obviously I'm ignoring the effects of mining the grasslands to generate more shields here (IIRC in the game I decided against building a granary, since I had so many good settler pumps to hand already, and so didn't need to hurry the tile improvements for the settler cities once I'd connected them up with roads).

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