Need some help on a bad start.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by Arrian
The real question is did he have iron?.....

-Arrian

He would have to in order to get knights...

Mss

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Arrian
The real question is did he have iron?

If so, the vet warrior upgrade is a solid choice. If not, that's probably why he didn't try it.

-Arrian

Agreed, it's a risky strategy if you aren't certain that you have iron close by. It works best for Scientific + Industrious (i.e. Ottomans, Persia would trigger ancient/despot GA), since it means that even far-away iron can be connected quickly. Being militaristic, however, at least gives cheap barracks.

[Theseus]

Post a SAV... let's have some fun.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
Post a SAV... let's have some fun.

Seconded.

[Killerdaffy]

An inofficial AU game?

[Arrian]

Is this a 1.29 game or a PTW game?

-Arrian

[planetfall]

Armageddon,

Your basic problem is chosen play strategy does not match chosen civ and game location.

How do I know? I only play the Germans now. I have finished a couple monarch games. I know what is more likely to work and not work with Germany.

1-- archer rush
Most likely to fail unless close to only AI civ and don't raging barbs. Why? It takes too long to build roads and needed military units.

2-- knight rush
Also likely to fail unless you play the ancient era well and have a good stating position. Why? Germany takes time to build and knights are too expensive and not too effective vs pikemen.


Ok, so what would I do?

1. Review chosen civ strengths and weaknesses:
a. great UU, but late in game
b. military is cheap
c. workers are avg
d. good science

2. Time your battles
Ancient era--
Horseman rush: build cash and upgrade chariots
Middle ages--
Cav + med inf.
I don't like MA wars as Germany so I just bide my time and build for the Indust ages.
Ind ages--
Panzers and infantry. Pre panzers build infantry. For more details see:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34597&pagenumber=2

3. Specifically, what I would do in this game:

1) -- build mini cities as you did,
2) -- build sufficient workers. I don't know how many you had, but with 6 cities you need at least 10. 1/city and 4 for military road construction.
3) -- ROP? why?? at best you will have an average militry. More likely to be weak. Asking for too much trouble. I never think the AI pays enough for the risk. Unless in this game you can march settler pairs thru land to new promised land. Don't think it would be available as AI is fairly fast in planting cities at Monarch level.
4) -- #1 priority will be keeping military at least "average". You need alliances. Happiness improvements can come later. First you need to survive.
5)-- improvements and knights. That will work at lower levels but not at monarch. Either go for knights and knight rush or improve and bide time until better time. I would say forget knights. If you want MA war, go for Mil Tradition. Then the military academy will be great advantage.
6)-- claim jungles!! These are your most reasonable opportunity for power. First get the land so AI doesn't. Remember rubber. Jungles == rubber. Panzers need rubber. Jungles == good, good, good. Naturally you will need 2 workers each jungle city, but you can start with one.

That should be enough to get you started. Without a sav file or posted minimap or more details it is difficult to give you more advice. Don't give up, it is fun to play with panzers.

== PF

[Aeson]

So I built up my 6 cities and went for the GL. I got it and then went for Monarchy and saved my money. Once I got to Monarchy I spent my cash on improvments on my cities and launched a Knight attack on the civ arcoss the desert from me.

Without seeing a save it's hard to say, but I think this is where your problem lies. For a good Knight rush, all your gold should be reserved for upgrading Horsemen, and all your builds should be Barracks and then Chariots/Horsemen. After upgrading to Knights, voluntarily cut off your Iron and start building more Horsemen to be upgraded if you still have the cash. If you set your high production cities to building their Knights before cutting off the Iron, you can have a hybrid production of Knights/Horsemen that your income should easily be able to keep up with.

Having the GL will enable you to save up plenty of gold for this purpose, but that's 400 shields which could mean 20 chariots or 40 warriors instead. Best to let the AI's build it for you, and take it with the units. Don't worry about falling behind in tech after Iron Working (or Horseback Riding), as all those techs aren't going to help the AI any until they hit Feudalism. Just make sure to take the GL before then.

With 6 cities on a standard map, 30 Horsemen and 2400 gold is a good target for when Chivalry comes around. 30 Knights should easily take out a non-gunpowder AI on those settings very quickly. Just never leave troops (you can garrison the city the turn it is taken, as it never will flip until after the next turn)inside the conquered cities until after you've completely wiped that AI out, as your culture will be lacking most likely.

Starting in a bad terrain position makes warfare all the more important. Archer 'rushes' can be useful, but probably won't win you a lot of territory, so never dump too much production into them. Warriors or Chariots are definitely the units that you should focus on building. I like a hybrid Sword/Knight rush. The units you build early are Warriors, for scouting and city garrisons. Then by the time you're ready to upgrade, switch to Chariots to replace the Warriors as garrisons, and use your new Swordsmen to take out a nearby civ.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Aeson

After upgrading to Knights, voluntarily cut off your Iron and start building more Horsemen to be upgraded if you still have the cash.

What a great tactic! Too often I have a large treasury but production of good units takes too long to be effective. Would also work for rifleman -> infantry


How can I use this idea next game? Hummmm...

== PF

[ArmaGeddin]

Wow!

First off I would like to thank everyone that wrote in all the great strategy comments! This thread has turned into a GREAT strategy thread on winning from a bad start.

Second, I have some bad news for some of you that wanted the save game file for the start of this game. I don't have it. (sigh) I was playing an MP game last night with a friend and, while my mind was on automatic, I kind of like.... You know..... Saved over it.

/em ducks his head down to avoid thrown bricks.

I have one save file I always save for the start of games, and when the MP game started, I did what I always do at the start of a game.... and saved.

I'm really sorry, I know alot of you wanted to try that game out.

[planetfall]

There's always next game.

It was interesting to think of "what would you do if".

Next time, ...civ3\saves\

           ...civ3\forumquestionsaves\

== PF

[ArmaGeddin]

I agree.....

I think i'm going to save out a special save at the start of each game just for the forum. That way I can always go back to show you all what happened. I will also start saving at turning points and places where something special happens.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by ArmaGeddin

....I kind of like.... You know..... Saved over it....

Doh!!

[planetfall]

Whoops, didn't read carefully enough

Originally posted by Aeson

Best to let the AI's build it for you, and take it with the units. Don't worry about falling behind in tech after Iron Working (or Horseback Riding), as all those techs aren't going to help the AI any until they hit Feudalism. Just make sure to take the GL before then.

With 6 cities on a standard map, 30 Horsemen and 2400 gold is a good target for when Chivalry comes around. 30 Knights should easily take out a non-gunpowder AI on those settings very quickly. Just never leave troops (you can garrison the city the turn it is taken, as it never will flip until after the next turn)inside the conquered cities until after you've completely wiped that AI out, as your culture will be lacking most likely.

I like a hybrid Sword/Knight rush. The units you build early are Warriors, for scouting and city garrisons. Then by the time you're ready to upgrade, switch to Chariots to replace the Warriors as garrisons, and use your new Swordsmen to take out a nearby civ.

Sometimes it is dangerous to skim read notes. I skimmed Aeson's comments and thought I would give them a try.

Situation:
Monarch, 6 civs, playing Germany.

5 civs known, in a large C shaped land mass.

Techs-- 5 behind.

Layout:

    Iroquios .. Rome

   .

   Germany

     ....  India..Aztecs

India was very weak and had 2 techs I didn't have. Ok, let's try Aeson's idea. Built 30 chariots. Falling further and further behind in tech/power. Ah but Aeson says it works, so keep on. Finally about 100BC had 30 chariots, upgraded them all to horses. Took out 4 Indian cities. No problem...opps. Big problems:

1. other civs are republics and I am still in despotism,
2. bribed Aztec to ally vs India. Big mistake, they now have at least one army and took the techs and land from India
3. I only got 1 city and no techs. Turns out India capital and core cities were on the other side of the Aztecs. I got gems and wasted 3 size 1 cities. Ugh.

Lessons:
1. If going to take on even a weak civ make sure you know at least where the capital is.
2. Alliances with Aztecs not really good.
3. If 6 techs down, horseman rush no good.
4. May either want to wait for knights or play differently.


I replayed from 750bc to 10bc. This time left India alone so Aztecs would have someone else to harrass besides me. Not getting any GW, and still behind in techs, but:
1. 4 techs behind instead of 5,
2. still got gems
3. GNP is now 57 instead of 50
4. score is about same 343 vs 338, but have 3 city line blocking aztecs and some open space others will need navy to get to.


New annoying strategy by AI
In this game the AI's are $%&!!heads. They develop up to border BUT do not road the last tile so you can't trade with them. I have never not been able to trade luxuries before. Real pain as I don't have harbors yet. Both aztec and Iroquois are following this strategy.

Anyone else seen this? Good counter strategy?

== PF

[Brizey]

Counter strategy to road thing: just build it yourself. Most of the time the AI will complain about your unit. Just say that you will move it then build the road anyway.

Also, Knights are effective against pikemen. Even musketmen. Retreat of a veteran unit is powerful when they are in large stacks.