Why, oh why does the poor AI...

[Dominae]

Library-University seems like an odd decision to me. I would put Temple-Cathedral as the "default" improvements, since smallish cities benefit more from those than science improvements. Personally I never build Libraries in my cities unless it's a core, high-commerce city (unless I'm using the Library for culture, which I don't often do).

alexman, are those build queues for any given civ, or just for one? As your other examples hint at, it seems natural for a "Trade" civ to build Marketplaces before Libraries. To repeat my question, are you sure the queue you listed is default for all types of civs?


Dominae

[alexman]

I removed all civ traits from Rome, and all items from their build-often list. But note that the build queue that I listed was for starting the game with all techs up to modern age. In a real game the AI usually builds temples first, because that's one of the first technologies (with a useful build) that it gets.

As for Colosseums, the AI picks them before temples because they generate two happy people to the temple's one. Again, this doesn't happen in a normal game because civs usually don't know construction before ceremonial burrial.

[Dominae]

So, basically you've demonstrated the preference structure among all improvements for the AI. But my question still remains: how do the "build often" flags affect this structure? Does it work as expected?


Dominae

[alva]

IMO market -places should be much higher on the list!!

But maybe this has to do , with only one lux beeing present ?

[alexman]

Dominae, build preferences work to a certain extent. For production, I listed the effects above. If you flag happiness, the AI builds colosseums before libraries. If you flag wealth, it builds marketplaces before catherdrals. If you flag growth, it builds granaries somewhere in the top half of the list.

The bottom line is that the build preferences work as expected, but the game situations where the AI actually has a choice that would be affected by those preferences are relatively rare.

The best build queue depends on many parameters, so it's not possible to say that one building is always better than another. We should give Firaxis' testers some credit and accept that the AI default priorities work well as they are, most of the time. Still, I think all civs should have production, and perhaps trade for harbors and marketplaces, flagged. No civ should have growth flagged.

alva848, there were three luxuries present, two of which were connected very fast, and one was on that island. That makes one extra happy face for each marketplace. Not really worth it. Marketplaces are important, but when the science slider is at 50% or higher, and there are no happiness problems, libraries are a better deal (cheaper). Also, the AI doesn't overlap its cities too much, so it needs those border expansions from cultural buildings.

[Arrian]

Well, starting from scratch with all the techs and no civ traits is an abnormal case, as I'm sure you realized. If presented with that situation, I would probably build a factory FIRST, using the luxury slider to deal with happiness until it was done. The rest of the builds depend on a number of factors (such as # of luxury resouces - marketplace now or marketplace after temple/cathedral?), but I can say that the library/university/research lab would be... umm... dead last if built at all. What need have you of research if you have all the techs?

-Arrian

[Theseus]

I wonder... do the "build often" preferences influence research at all?

[alexman]

Theseus, I can see where you're going with this!
I will investigate, although it's a bit of a pain because debug mode does not directly give you that information.

Another thing I just discovered:
The AI does not consider the maintenance of a building in its decision of whether to build it or not!
I increased the maintenenace of libraries to 100 gold, and it still built them before anything else.

This might be a blessing in disguise for modders that want to strengthen the AI, because they can bring the human optimal strategy closer to the AI strategy by tweaking building maintenance costs. For example, I think that a very good change to make would be to increase the maintenance of cathedrals to 3 gold. (Temple=1 happy face, 1 maintenance, Colosseum=2hf, 2m, Cathedral=3hf, 3m). This would weaken Cathedrals (and, btw the strong religious trait), in favor of Colosseums, so the human and AI strategies would no longer be that different.

[Edit: Arrian, good point, but the AI still had the modern age techs to research]

[alexman]

Edit: Deleted some information about build preferences that I am not so sure about any more. Still testing...

[Theseus]

Wow...

1) We have to re-assess any mods.

2) Soren should help.

3) Firaxis, can I say "PER DIEM" again?

[Zachriel]

"Simulated Intelligence"

The "AI" is actually an "SI," that is, Simulated Intelligence. You're not supposed to look at an AI town close enough to see that it is wasting shields. That's like looking behind the town store in a Western movie and seeing the braces holding up the fake building. You know they're there, but you pretend you don't.

Basically, it just doesn't matter how efficient AI towns are; everything is adjusted by selecting the difficulty level. If the AI is 50% efficient, then give it a 50% boost. This is much simpler than actually trying to produce a truly intelligent AI -- and it works just as well in many respects. This is one of the compromises that makes Civ possible on a "primitive" 20th century computing machine.

And not that many previous suggestions in this thread wouldn't be good ideas and in furtherance of the phantasmagoria. Just remember, the goal of the gamemaker is not to actually design intelligence, but simply to create a successful illusion.

Simulating Intelligent combat is another thing. . . .

[alexman]

Zachriel, wise comments as usual.

BUT, there is a small problem with the illusion that Civ3 SI presents to us right now. The AI bonuses give the human a good (often too good) challenge early-on in the game, but are not hardly enough in the late game. Our goal here is to make the AI behave more like the human at the city-level so that it can use its bonuses more effectively in the latter part of the game.

[Theseus]

alexman, my turn:

You just NAILED it... my quest for killer AI civs, the AU Mod, and even Vel's thoughts about extending the (don;t remember his words) period of 'balance' are all about getting away from the benefits given to the AI civs via difficulty level, and getting them to perform better AS THE GAME GOES ON.

Zachriel, your comments are 'correct' but in a sense not relevant (nooooo insult intended )... I just want to see a better challenge, whether or not we acknowledge that it's SI versus AI. Do we care that the chess programs are not true AIs? Yes and no... If the AU Mod can pass the equivalent of a Turing Test with the bunch of us, that's good enough for me.

[Dominae]

I think alexman's distinction is extremely important. Civ3 is only challenging in the early game (and sometimes into the midgame, admittedly) because of the bonuses the SI gets. Once you realise this, the endgame becomes quite boring IMO. Ideally I'm looking for an AI/SI that doesn't need the bonuses it gets at the beginning of the game but is challenging due to algorithms that play the game smartly. These algorithms don't need to be cutting-edge AI, but should at least incorporate some of what alexman and other players know to be strategically sound.


Dominae

[Pyrodrew]

Crucial Highlights

Very informative.

Library
University
Colosseum
Temple
Cathedral
Factory
Coal Plant
Hydro Plant
Marketplace
Bank
Stock Exchange

Eek!

As for Colosseums, the AI picks them before temples because they generate two happy people to the temple's one.
I think that a very good change to make would be to increase the maintenance of cathedrals to 3 gold. (Temple=1 happy face, 1 maintenance, Colosseum=2hf, 2m, Cathedral=3hf, 3m). This would weaken Cathedrals (and, btw the strong religious trait), in favor of Colosseums, so the human and AI strategies would no longer be that different.

Increasing Cathedral maintenance to 3 will still make the AI build the Colosseum too soon. IMO, making the Temple a requirement before you can build the Colosseum would help the AI more. Then logically & similar to human strategy, the AI would build a Cathedral, once available, before the Colosseum as well.

all civs should have production, and perhaps trade for harbors and marketplaces, flagged. No civ should have growth flagged.

1.I strongly agree all civs should have production flagged (if not then factories should be weakened). Factories + Cavalry = dead AI.

2.I agree most AI Civs should have Trade flagged. Not only because of the marketplace, but because the AI is horrible at setting up its road network with other Civs, harbors are crucial for them. In my current unmodded game several Civs have luxuries, but because they refused to build harbors they could not trade with other Civs giving me a huge advantage. Harbors offer trade, veteran ships, & more food at a cheap cost too good to pass up.

3.I agree most AI Civs should not have Growth flagged.

The only exception to points 2 & 3 might be for a little AI variety so AI Civs do not all have the exact same things flagged/unflagged.

I would probably build a factory FIRST

This is why it is important to keep the rule that no more than 4 aspects are flagged for the AI Civs... the more that are checked potentially drops the priority of Factories.