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Deity for beginners: a peaceful builder strat.

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  • Deity for beginners: a peaceful builder strat.


    Two consecutive victorious games without the spaceship option (the “Deity for beginners” and “Isle of the Sleeping God” threads) established pretty clearly that an early rush, followed by a long cocoon period in which you steadily catch up in tech as the AI plateaus in the modern era, allows enough time to build a strong modern military and go from last to first. The trickiest part is making sure the AI doesn’t destroy you in that middle period, when your military is basically obsolete; a low profile and paying tribute mean even more than alliances and an ability to take out those half-assed midgame invasions.

    Pre-game strategy

    For my next game, I decided to keep the spaceship option on, which meant that I couldn’t afford to hang back and let the “tech wall” bring me back into the game. Before starting, I concluded the obvious: that generating enough beakers against an AI who has a 40% production edge and trades with itself is the key to winning the space race. This led me to draw up a list of my first three goals: the Great Library, the Forbidden Palace, and one of the happiness wonders. All three go a long way toward generating tech, and getting them would leave me with a shot at my fourth goal: the TOE wonder. If I picked up the TOE, I would have a good chance of building Hoover’s as well, and that should be enough for me to edge out the AI for the launch.

    Playing with eight civs on a standard setting, I chose Egypt, reasoning that the industrious trait would be key, and changing governments more than once would mean more than the scientific trait’s free techs (especially if I had the GL). I shied away from a militaristic civ, because I wasn’t going for a domination win, and the goals I set up for myself meant I might not be able to mount an early rush in time.

    The ancient era: peaceful expansion and the Great Library.

    Egypt started on one end of a continent with Rome and Greece. The terrain to the north was fertile, with a central river and two sites for settler factories. I sealed off those civs from 40% of the continent with two warriors on a chokehold, while building two settler factories, a worker factory, and the GL site as my first four towns.

    The key was the GL city, which was surrounded by plains and forests – ideal for an early build – and on a river. One worker built roads, a second worked the GL site tiles, and all the rest fattened up the GL city to size 12 as quickly as I could (eventually resulting in a 30% despot luxury rate). This city had a temple; my subsequent towns were scheduled for barracks, then War Chariots.

    With help from the chokehold, I was able to build thirteen cities, even though the Greeks, Persians and Romans eventually sailed over and planted another eight (see map). I researched the wheel, traded for warrior code, researched through literature, then saved my gold. The Great Library was built in Heliopolis in 370BC. I then started work on the FP, and bounced the capital to the GL city (Heliopolis).

    The focus on city- and wonder building slowed down the growth of my military. At this relatively late point, there wasn’t much value to attacking the Roman cities bordering me, and a clear benefit to maintaining that chokehold as a border. My obvious target was the four Greek cities scattered along my coast, and I didn’t have enough WCs to take on hoplites, against an enemy who would soon have knights. The result is that I plunged into the Middle Ages as a monarchy without any sort of aggressive expansion… in fact, with no war at all.

    This is a map of the Egyptian half of the continent, circa 10AD:
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Damn, Txurce, you are an ironman.

    A plains start, as Egypt with cultural linking on... on Deity.

    It's hard to see, but it looks like you sacrificed everything for the REX, GL, and the palace bounce. To be at Music Theory, and still working on Temples and Marketplaces (and no Barracks, I think)...
    The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

    Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.


    • #3
      Theseus, you're basically right. The biggest trade-off was not having the muscle to rush in time; only half my cities have barracks, and that didn't cut it. I didn't intend to do this, but couldn't resist building settlers with my wheat and cattle grasslands boosts. On the other hand, I probably wound up with more cities than I would have, had I rushed. It was a good scenario for peaceful expansion, and I would have been limited by geography to only a war with the Romans.

      The palace bounce was no big deal, because I was using the city as a settler factory anyway. However, I'm going to pay culturally for the late temples, and the late marketplaces are delaying my transition to republic by a century or two.

      Going for the GL was a gamble, because even with my heavy focus on it, someone could theoretically have beaten me to it. Having it is better than the tech gains a war or two would have gained me, though, and my gold can be saved for the techs I'll have to buy down the road.

      As you can see, I'll have the FP in twenty turns, which is pretty good. The next real hurdle is snagging a happiness wonder, which should allow me to keep my luxury slider at zero throughout the game.


      • #4
        just wondering, why do you build your Fp this close to your capital? Do you plan to jump it again? Wouldn't it be better to use it as a pre-build? You got music coming up anyway
        Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
        Then why call him God? - Epicurus


        • #5

          I'm a (nearly) total newb and prefer building to warmongering - yeah, I know you have to go to war some, but would prefer to have long periods of building punctuated with brief Wars With Purpose.

          Thanks for taking this on and please keep it up! Enquiring minds want to know!

          Side question: Are you planning a lot of governmental changes later on, or do you plan to just go from Despot to Republic to (insert end-game govt)?

          The reason I ask is, my playstyle is to generally get to Republic as soon as possible and leave it there as long as possible - which is making me wonder if religious is worth it for me.

          Thanks again for trying this out. Keep us posted, please!
          "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos


          • #6
            Damn.... I echo Theseus' comment, Txurce. That's not much of a start position, and yet you play it out on Diety, with Rome & Greece as your neighbors. It's not SVC, but it's pretty hardcore. Great planning to nab the GL, btw.

            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.


            • #7
              Alva, I considered using the FP as a happiness wonder pre-build, but as you can see, it'll be finished well before I research music theory.

              I'm building the FP so close to my capital because my civ isn't going to get much bigger; I only need a few more cities to have a decent research core for the SR. Greater expansion would probably be a losing trade-off, as switching over to building knights at this point (for example) would cripple the infrastructure builds that are necessary to win the SR.

              My current placement seems near-ideal (to me!) if I remain static or swallow up the nearby Greek cities, and good enough if I expand southward into the jungle. About the only reasons to build it elsewhere would be if I planned on expanding deep into Rome, which I don't, or if I had kept Thebes as the capital and built the FP smack in the middle of the jungle. But that wouldn't aid me for centuries (if ever), so I went for the soonest possible benefit. Keep in mind that I am no longer benefiting from the GL, and need every advantage I can get to hang in the tech race... starting with low corruption.


              • #8
                Why not slow it sown abit(the building i mean) or crank up your science and work with a small deficit(you got plenty of money, well eugh ,you got enough )

                Some other civ might discover music, wich means it should shorten your turns.

                Just seems a waste to me to not take the wonder, as it will basically remove any happiness problems. Not to mention the extra culture points.
                Could we have some screens from your histograph(culture wise) are you catching up, leading, running away??
                Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
                Then why call him God? - Epicurus


                • #9
                  Ducki, I plan to switch from monarchy to republic as soon as it makes fiscal sense, and then to democracy as soon as I research it. When I play with non-religious civs, I usually switch once only as well, either to monarchy if going for domination, or to republic if going for the SR. It's been a different story on deity domination games, since the beakers or gold I need to catch up on tech demand republic or democracy at least until I'm ready for war. If you're only going to switch once, my take is that religious saves you a few turns, expands your borders early, and gets you cheap happiness builds - I'd take the science trait if going for a peaceful win, and militaristic if going for domination, both coupled with industrious.

                  Arrian, I would like to take credit for persevering with the mediocre starting position, but the nearby river and population booster in my capital happened to fit my predetermined needs, so I kept on playing. That I was able to build so many cities without fighting and despite the so-so start is more noteworthy, and geography helped here... making the start position not as bad as it seems.

                  THE GL strat shouldn't fail to get you one early wonder or another, although it may not be worth the effort in different circumstances. It was fun because I'd never done it before, just like I loved the early guerrilla warfare in my first Aztec domination game.


                  • #10
                    btw: just took another look at your preset stategie:
                    Be carefull, 'caus at the moment your only able to build hoover in the Thebes area.
                    Just thought I'd mention it, one of those things that's easily forgotten about
                    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
                    Then why call him God? - Epicurus


                    • #11
                      My advice is WIN THIS ONE, it was a perfect start While the plains start location may not seem ideal, the choke point looks like a huge advantage on Deity. I think the GL coup is another fantastic win for you. It would never have entered my head that I could even dream of getting the GL. When you get education, you should have enough gold to carry you to the turn, and then ToE is a realistic possibility given the AI's need for Nationalism.

                      Will you use ToE to generate tech for trades or will you try to sprint to the finish?? If you sprint, I'm sure you will be worried that they will catch you. IMO, you are going to need a third miracle on top of GL and ToE to win this one. Maybe you might consider using the ToE to beeline out one branch and then turn off the research slider. Try to trade the advanced tech you've got for lots of other tech as they research it. Meantime, continue to hoard gold and then buy tech all the way to near the finish, particularly if you can continue build some gold backlog to make a short sprint on your own to the last SS tech. The odds are still long that you will make it. But maybe you can encourage the boys and girls to get into WWIII with each other during the modern era. Good luck!!

                      My question, which I've asked before, is why the focus on Hoovers?? The reason I ask is that I've had RR and factories up and running for lots of turns while waiting for Hoovers to build, paying a "penalty" each turn relative to having built a coal plant in each city. For a small civ particularly, it strikes me that the penalty adds up to more than the cost of the coal plants, although everyone seems to disagree.
                      Illegitimi Non Carborundum


                      • #12
                        @Jshelr: for one thing, theres denial
                        Imagine a great/uge civ on deity with hoover
                        Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
                        Then why call him God? - Epicurus


                        • #13
                          Alva, cranking up my science would seem to be the ideal approach. Unfortunately, this is my reality: I'm in a monarchy with a 20% luxury rate, due to a couple of selfish cities, including the monstrous Heliopolis. The best that I can do under these circumstances is to research MT in 27 turns, with a deficit of 18gpt, and my FP would be finished before then.

                          I am counting on the fact that no one else will research MT immediately after education. This should not only give me the edge for Bach, but also allow me to trade the tech for others, now that I'm no longer benefiting from the GL, and just about everyone can out-research me. As a result, I am researching it in 35 turns, running a surfeit of 16gpt. My hope is that I'll get the wonder, a tech to trade, and have amassed enough gold to buy more. (I intend to build the wonder in Giza, by the way. As soon as I finish the aqueduct, I'll switch to a palace build, and then grow the city much as I did Heliopolis.)

                          I intend to build Hoover's in Thebes, my only river city other than the capital, where I can do a palace pre-build. Do you see a reason why only having one option is a problem?

                          My stats as of 10AD are #6 in size and mfg. goods, #8 in gnp, and #7 in population. This is in keeping with my shaky cultural status, as seen below:
                          Attached Files


                          • #14
                            Couldn't you put in 1 or 2 entertainers in your capitol: therfore needing less of the luxury slider and creating more resources for your science?
                            To me having 1 size 12 city seems like a waste, if you need to adjust your slider for that pupose only. Maybe get it down to size 9 or 10 might actually save you money IMHO
                            could you save a post? eugh make it the other way around, will you and post a save
                            Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
                            Then why call him God? - Epicurus


                            • #15
                              I for one don't think the start is all that bad. Plains with a river is a pretty good surrounding terrain, at least for the early game. What surprises me more is the dearth of hills and mountains - not a lot of easy shields in your corner of the world. Is this a 5 Billion map?

                              What is more impressive to me than the start position is the reminder that Txurce is playing on a Mac, and therefore on 1.21f. My Deity wins (even the few under 1.29f) have all been the result of aggressive, offensive expansion - and have been the result of hurting my foes more than enlarging my own productive power. If Txurce pulls off the (largely) peaceful Deity win under 1.21's technology regime - all the more impressive.

                              I am enjoying these public experiments with Deity -- I am also jealous of the time you're getting to play all these games in rapid succession.