FP+Palace placement

[sabrewolf]

i've never figured out, where's the optimal place to build the foreign palace and possibly move the palace.

i'm mostly tempted to place the FP somewhere far away in captured cities to spread the corruption to a minimum. but the trouble lies in the time loss... an earlier FP will pay a lot longer than a late one (duh!)

also, moving my capital... usually a very expensive thing to do and i hate losing my core city's advantages. usually the first 2-3 cities have the best trade and science (i like going for colossus, copernicus observatory, newton's university in the same city) and good production (vitually no corruption). so a palace move doesn't really pay (so i think)

now, what do you do:
1) build FP in middle of (e.g.) continent or world still in your own early territory
2) build FP very late, but on the opposite side of the world (best corruption spreading)
3) build FP near to capital (just a few cities, maybe near you long-time enemy), move capital later somewhere else
4) other solution

btw: i mostly play standard/emperor, recently deity/emperor (aaaargh, AI mostly beats me to ancient wonders ;( )

[candybo]

Like all else, it depends on the individual game. That said, I usually like to build it sooner than later, in a city I founded. Often I will send a settler way out, beyond my "homeland", specifically to be designated the "FP city", for future benefits. Just make sure it's defended, and aquaducted... And that's my 2 BananaDollars

[Harovan]

I mostly use option 3. To build the FP pays even if it's not located optimally. On the first opportunity I relocate my palace then, either with a leader or a free palace jump.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I mostly use option 3. To build the FP pays even if it's not located optimally. On the first opportunity I relocate my palace then, either with a leader or a free palace jump.

free palace jump? when do you get that?
i've only seen that, when my capital gets captured/razed, or as you said, with a great leader

[Harovan]

Free Palace Jump: If you disband your capital either by the right-click option or by building a settler with no food surplus, the palace jumps to the next biggest city. Note, that the presence of wonders also counts as population, but not I'm sure as how many pop units it counts.

Here's the general plan:

• Build the FP near your capital in a city, surrounded by others (i.e. not a coastal city).
• Build workers in all your cities, till they are all size 3 at most. None of the cities shall have a wonder, or the result will be unpredictable.
• Add some workers to the target city, so that it is at least size 6. You may need to build/rush a temple or hook up luxuries for this.
• Disband your old capital, if possible by building a settler. Rebuild it instantly.
• You will find the palace in the target (>6 size) city.

[sabrewolf]

thanks for the info. but this means, all advantages (culture bonus from old temples, wonders) of the city are lost. i guess it's worth it, if your capital has too much useless terrain (only desert, mountains, too much sea, etc.). usually i'd move my settler a few tiles in the beginning to get a better location in such a case.

[Harovan]

You are right about the city improvements. The solution is, don't build any, if you intend to make a free palace jump. I let my capital produce only settlers and defenders, so that's not an issue.

[Arrian]

I generally go with option (4), other solution:

I fight. Besides hurting my opponent(s), I hope to generate great leaders, one of which will be used to rush the FP. The sooner the better.

If I decide not to fight early on, or if my capitol starts off close to the coast (not optimal for corruption), I may build the FP one city inland and rush the Palace w/a leader. That way my original core remains intact, and I get an early boost to my outlying cities.

-Arrian

[Artifex]

Bump.

There are too few threads on this very important subject. FP placement strategies are the cornerstone of the game and can really make or break it at Emperor-Diety levels.

Intersting strategy about sending a settler out early and making a FP city for future placement. I might have to try that out next time.

In my current game (Japan,Large, 12 civs, Emperor) FP placement is what really befuddled me the most. After every great leader I coudln't bring myself to use it on an FP because my empire had not expanded enough too get any benifit. I built, Great Library, Sistine, and with my 3rd one decided to build an army and get the heroic epic.

I decided to try a new strategy. Build the FP at a good site close to palace. I chose a second ring of cities right next to my first core ring. The designated FP city had a good mix of hills, some wine resources, 2 mountians, and an iron resource. So in the future there is a possibility of an Ironworks.

Then with my next leader I plan on moving my palace over to Former Russian territory which I ruthlessy razzed and pillaged I might add. Gotta love those Samurai.

I am just wondering how much I should build up my core group of cities around my Palace before moving the palace with my next GL.

I built courthouses in all of them, libraries, harbors, marketplaces, cathedrals, temples.

I am wondering if building universities in all these cities woudl be overkill sinc eI am moving the palace away? Also I am right at education in the tech tree and wondering if it is too early to make my first palace jump with my next GL. I don't have police stations in my first core since I don;t have that tech, I wonder if courthouses and the improvements listed will be enough to insure thier productivity in the future.

[Arrian]

It depends on just how close your FP is to your current Palace location. It may be close enough that your current core cities will remain relatively productive after you move your palace. It may not. Impossible to tell w/o seeing it. Plus, I'm not used to Large maps, so even if I saw the map I might not have the answer. Best way to find out: try it.

Remember, WLTKD is really great for waste-fighting. IIRC, it only helps shield waste, not gold corruption.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Artifex
I am just wondering how much I should build up my core group of cities around my Palace before moving the palace with my next GL.

I built courthouses in all of them, libraries, harbors, marketplaces, cathedrals, temples.

I am wondering if building universities in all these cities woudl be overkill sinc eI am moving the palace away? Also I am right at education in the tech tree and wondering if it is too early to make my first palace jump with my next GL. I don't have police stations in my first core since I don;t have that tech, I wonder if courthouses and the improvements listed will be enough to insure thier productivity in the future.

I feel like I'm following you around on this one, Artifex but I agree with you and also feel that great Palace and FP locations are an underappreciated and under-discussed subject - securing two functional cores as early as possible is a huge advantage, especially when competing with the production advantages of the AI above Regent.

In your specific situation, I would say that you have more than enough development in your initial core. I probably wouldn't hesitate to relocate my Palace into the former Russian territory. With temples, cathedrals, marketplaces, courthouses, and a centrally located FP, you're definitely good to go. When you finally do discover Communism, build police stations as well, but I wouldn't wait the many, many turns it will take to get to Communism to relocate the palace - your core will do fine and its best to have a second core up and running earlier rather than later. I also wouldn't worry about universities in the context of a palace move - by all means build univ's for the research and/or culture effects, but they really won't do anything in regards to the Palace / FP issue (and I suspect you will lose very little production in your first core, so you can freely build univ's after the palace relocation whenever it suits your needs).

It sounds to me like you have an ideal situation for a palace relocation. Go for it as soon as a leader appears!

I'm reposting a screenshot I posted in the General Disucssions thread a week or so ago (the thread seems to have died). A couple of points on the map below. The game was a small map, Emperor level - this means that OCN for the game is 9 (in Artifex's game the OCN would be much higher). The map shot was also taken before I had wiped out the Zulu in the south (that's why my 4th Palace seems to be located in foreign territory). I expect each palace relocation to allow full infrastructure development in 4 - 5 cities (represented by the "rings of influence"), with several key enablers like factories, courthouses, police stations in several others. I also expect that, once I relocate the palace again, the "infrasturcture complete" cities will again suffer from significant corruption, but that the effect of the improvements will make the corruption levels seem more manageable. As a specific example, both the "Palace #2 city" and the city to its southeast (farther away and so not benefiting from the Palace #3 city or FP after the palace move) continued to generate substantial commerce and shields after the Palace was moved away from that area of the continent.

Catt

[Arrian]

I absolutely agree that the palace/fp setup is perhaps THE most crucial element of the game if you want to out-produce and out-research the AI on levels higher than regent. The earlier you have a FP, the better. Obviously, it can make sense to wait a bit if you know you will soon have an optimal site, but sooner is almost always better than later.

There are several geographic situations you may find yourself in:

1) alone on a small/medium continent. The closest to this I've really dealt with was MTIII (?), where we (Japan) started on a medium continent with the Iroquois and English. I, and just about everyone else, built the forbidden in the dead center of the continent. I later moved my palace with little drop in productivity from my original cities. A FP that was a bit more off-center may have been more optimal, but would have been worse once the palace was moved. Given that the move was done late in the game for me, that may have been better, but in most situations, it's probably best to center the FP and move your Palace to another island/continent asap for maximum productivity.

2) Largish, but oddly shaped continent. Not Catt's example above (that's closer to #3, IMO). Something that does not allow for a good "barbell" setup. In this case, it is best to have your palace and FP far enough apart where they don't overlap much, but once that requirement is met, don't worry about getting the max number of cities within their respective radii. I would argue it is better to pick your spots based upon terrain. Two good cores of cities on nice terrain supporting a large hinterland of high-corruption cities beats the hell out of less productive cores coupled with moderately corrupted hinterlands.

3) The barbell-shaped continent, or something kinda like it. Catt's map above isn't exactly a barbell, but it does allow for a pretty good Palace/FP setup*. This is my favorite, as it is pretty easy to decide on your Palace/FP locations. Then I don't have to agonize over the decision. My "Game of Ultimate Power" and recent Egyptian game were cases of #3, and they were two of my best games ever.

Modifying each of these scenarios, of course, is your starting location. If you're on or near the coast, off on a pennisula or something, it makes sense to build the Forbidden inland a bit, but still relatively close to your capitol, and then move the palace later (did this with Rome recently and it worked like a charm).


* - what Catt did makes perfect sense since he was playing on Diety. On monarch, he probably could have taken over his continent MUCH earlier, allowing for a FP around where the red circle intersects with the circles for "2" and "3" and a Palace move down by "4" probably just NE of it.

It's all a question of what you can manage, and WHEN. Catt eventually took over his home continent. But it took him until late in the modern age to do it. Holding out for a better FP spot than he has would have been suicidal. The choice is a bit tougher on a lower level of play, as you are always tempted to hold out for that perfect spot. I'd say you need to have the FP built by the early middle ages, at the latest. Waiting longer than that is folly, IMHO.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Arrian
I would argue it is better to pick your spots based upon terrain. Two good cores of cities on nice terrain supporting a large hinterland of high-corruption cities beats the hell out of less productive cores coupled with moderately corrupted hinterlands.

Absolutely agree. You need a nice mixture of grassland, hills and mountains to ensure enough shield production for your core. I will often also be influenced with an eye towards a future IW city. Hills, mountains and jungle are promising, and an early iron deposit catches my attention in searching for an FP location.

. . . what Catt did makes perfect sense since he was playing on Diety.

Actually, Emperor - but I'll take credit for Deity!

On monarch, he probably could have taken over his continent MUCH earlier, allowing for a FP around where the red circle intersects with the circles for "2" and "3" and a Palace move down by "4" probably just NE of it.

This was a game that I actually lost and replayed again from about 3200 BC, and you're absolutely right that I had to have an FP up and running as soon as possible just to compete. My starting terrain was terrible and a hyper-aggressive Shaka Zulu to my south enjoyed some prime land - the early game was all about survival.

But the other improtant factor relating to the map screenshot is that it was a small map -- OCN = 12. Emperor's 85% optimal city modifier meant an OCN of 9. Even with modifiers like courthouses, police stations, and WLTKD, there was simply no way I was going to get widespread production from that continent approaching anything close to Arrian's production in the GoUP.

BTW - everyone interested in the Palace - FP location issue should definitely review Arrian's game - it is the best example of the perfect barbell positioning I've seen posted - the thread is here.

Catt

[Arrian]

Oh, emperor, that's right. I think I transformed it into Deity because of the starting position, which did indeed suck.

I intend to post, for the purposes of this discussion, both my recent Egyptian game (palace/fp as good as GoUP, but earlier) and my earlier Roman game, where I built the FP in a central spot for my empire at the time, and later moved the palace. If I'm not too tired when I get home tonight, I will work on the minimap and F1 data screenshots.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Here's where I get confused... building the FP near your original palace (if it's in a central location), and then, at some unknown later date, using a GL to move the Palace.

It seems like a huge waste to me. I'd rather build some other Wonder, especially through the medieval age.


Maybe I just don;t get it...