Why you do NOT want to mine shielded grasslands!

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I'm wondering if there's a way of using this approach to maximise the despotism GA. I suspect not, as the only way to benefit is to have a lot of mined non-SG and irrigated plains. It's difficult to have lots when cities are pumpin' settlers, so it'd mean not expanding much, but growing three or four cities up then triggering the GA.

I don't see any way to maximize the GA in despotism, because there is no way you can get more irrigation using just grassland in despotism. However, if you get your GA just before switching to republic / monarchy (this sometimes happens, and a gov switch might be good, as you won't get many bonusses in despotism anyway), you sometimes are already irrigating land, even if it won't do you any good in despotism. In this case, it is no problem to start irrigation the SGs as well, because these will provide 2 shields in a despotism GA, whether they are mined, irrigated, or bare land. And mining normal grass will give them the 2 shield bonus as well, so you don't lose anything doing it a bit earlier then needed (you won't gain anything either)

DeepO

[wonkyrat]

I like to mine grasslands until the city has built an aqueduct and again until it has built a hospital as if you can't increase population size anyway it is useless to concentrate on food production, better to concentrate on shields. Once I get engineering, the mining becomes forest. After hospitals I irrigate every bit of land I can.

[Hurricane]

What about waste? Later in the game, a very large number of cities will only produce 1 shield/turn because of waste. I usually end up irrigating all tiles around these cities so they can grow at max speed and thus increase my score. The only improvements they get are Aqueducts and sometimes hospitals.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by wonkyrat
I like to mine grasslands until the city has built an aqueduct and again until it has built a hospital as if you can't increase population size anyway it is useless to concentrate on food production, better to concentrate on shields. Once I get engineering, the mining becomes forest. After hospitals I irrigate every bit of land I can.

Well... this seems like a strange strategy. It all depends on the situation, of course, but unless you have the pyramids or granaries in place there is little chance you will bump into the pop limits before you can build aquaducts/hospitals. Before aquaducts, I try to get 3-4 extra food, which, without bonus resources, you won't get unless you irrigate something. Before hospitals, I aim at 5-8 extra food, again not doable without any irrigation. And after my cities grow, there is no sense in booming their growth beyond size 20, as the specialists you will get are worthless. So, I gradually decrease the amount of irrigation, and get as much mining as possible, as shields are useful and specialists are not.

This is about the counter strategy to yours...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, wonkyrat, I forgot to mention this: why do you forest mined tiles? That one I don't understand, as you lose food with it, and thus need irrigation somewhere else to support your citizens. Mines are fine on grassland, and with RR produce exactly the same amount of shields as a forest, but more food.

Originally posted by Hurricane
What about waste? Later in the game, a very large number of cities will only produce 1 shield/turn because of waste. I usually end up irrigating all tiles around these cities so they can grow at max speed and thus increase my score. The only improvements they get are Aqueducts and sometimes hospitals.

True, to a certain extent. The problem is that you will have to 'see' where you will not get any shields anyhow, in those cities you only need irrigation, and preferably not too much either (as you don't have the shields to build temples, cathedrals, marketplaces so you risk of only gaining unhappy citizens). But many of the cities can have some shields, but for instance only 85% of normal, uncorrupted cities. If you have 20 shields coming from mining etc, that's still 3 shields instead of 1. Not something terribly productive, but at least you can build some improvements on your own, instead of having to rush everything.
But it is only worth it in a few cases, like when you need a beachhead, or you're planning on relocating your palace, or you're going for the best possible score. Otherwise, just forget about those cities. Automate your workers, start building on a temple, a marketplace, and an aquaduct (or a temple, marketplace and a cathedral), set the governor to manage moods, and just let it do its thing without any interaction on your part.

DeepO

[rflagg]

another factor

Another thing to think about, though I've always been one who mines SGs and irrigates the regular Gs, is when your territory is under attack.

Most AI civs like to do some pillaging, and if you mine/irrigate the way that's suggested here, you'll be less likely to be severly hurt when a pillaging occurs.

Quick example in case you don't see my point: The AI pillages your irrigated-RR grassland which was bringing in 3f/0s. Your loss will be 2 food, which is usually quite a bit in a border city that's main goal is expansion, not production. However, with the "new" strat, you would lose only 1 food, while most likely losing shields that aren't even gaining you anything anyways.

This is an idea that's never crossed my mind in the 3 Civ games to come along, and any time I'd see the auto settlers/workers do this, I'd cry foul at the stupid AI, because it obviously didn't know what it was doing to my land. I guess it helps to go against the grain (or wheat)!

-Rflagg.

[DeepO]

you are right... however, you wouldn't want an AI pillaging many tiles of your land, and you should have some reserve improvements to cover for those.

However, your example I don't fully get. A irrigated + RR grassland gets 4food, 0 shields. Pillaged that would be 2 food. Mined, it would be 2 food, 2 shields, going to 2 food again. Your loss won't be one food, but zero!

But, an immediate comment, even if this is true in theory, you are not very likely to see it happening in game. The AI will pillage whatever is on its way towards your city, or nets you something special. So resources are pillaged first, and further the path towards your city (most of the times taking the defensive rout, so over hills, forests, jungle, or any other way you force him to). By the time he reaches you, you should be able to at least damage him so he returns without pillaging you too much

DeepO

[MJW]

Originally posted by Velociryx


and I tend to shy away from having too many cities bigger than size 13 (too much pollution for me).


-=Vel=-

In the endgame pollution does not matter because you can clear it away in zero turns and Gobal Warming does not matter because it hurts everyone the same.

[Hagbart]

Yeah you must be right that it is best to have mined grassland and irrigated shield-grassland when going into GA. Thx for the tip.

[André Alfenaar]

What about putting forests on regular Grassland (non-shielded)? Wouldn't this be a nice trick to increase your production if your cities are placed in a flat -low production- country of mainly grasslands?

[Theseus]

Good call Andre... not just under the circumstances you describe, btw.

In the period prior to Sanitation, many cities get stuck at 12 pop... you might as well forest all unshielded grassland, to the point where there is no excess food.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Have been looking through strategies since geting access to PtW in an effort to maximise the efforts in my current game, and I couldn't help but notice and comment here.

ALl of this irrigating SGs sounds well and good if you want to have to go back and change all your mined SGs (and it seems all agree mining SGs early on is THE way to go), but frankly I have got to the size where I don't want to do that. It takes too long and too much MM. Furthermore, it seems to me that the main idea behind irrigating SGs is to be able to access those mined hills earlier on. OK, but if you are

1.making tonnes of food from flood plains
2.already have the pop to use said mined hills
3.away from your GA (either you had it before or you aren't going for it for some time)

then mining SGs is still the best way to go.
The only exception to where these situations apply would be where you have a city that is far too corrupt to be of much production use, in which case irrigating will at least give you extra pop for workers/settlers/poprushing in a wartime return to Despotism.

So, in brief summary (disclaimer: read the rest of the thread - this is a gross simplification), mine SGs in Despotism. Since in Monarchy irrigating grassland gives you extra food (where it didn't in Despotism), it can be useful to irrigate so your cities can grow to use the high-shield terrain around more quickly. Once you are using this high-shield terrain, go back to mining the SGs, provided you have enough food for your city's size.

[Theseus]

Without re-reading the thread, I currently find that, due to tight city spacing, I really NEED to re-irrigate SGs late in the game to get further city growth, especially past 12-13 pop.

And with the exception of artificial situations like AU 203, it's not like I don;t have a GAJILLION foreign workers hanging around anyway!

[theNiceOne]

Originally posted by Theseus
Without re-reading the thread, I currently find that, due to tight city spacing, I really NEED to re-irrigate SGs late in the game to get further city growth, especially past 12-13 pop.

By tight city spacing I assume you mean that each city has around 13 squares each. In that case, why would you sacrifice production for growth after the city has reached size 12?
Each additional citizen after the 12th means:
* Two more food has to be produced, which again means two less shields.
* One more gold (if the new citizen becomes a taxman).

So you trade away two shields and get one gold. This can be a good trade if the city is so corrupt that the shields are simply vasted, or if you just care about score (since one additional citizen adds to your score).

But if you have a well-developde city with factory and a plant, you get 4 shields (minus corruption).

[DeepO]

MrWhereItsAt, that was not the point of this thread, if you don't need irrigation, I don't want you to start irrigating SGs... but if you have any irrigated grassland, it should be shielded if possible, as this will give you the most benefits. In produced shields, that is, not in food.

But indeed, it requires MM if you need to go back, but most people here do at least part of the terraforming and thus MM themselves. And just a few workers on manual can do this, while the majority is on automatic.

DeepO