But I say unto you, Love your enemies

[Harovan]

In both of the 2 minitourneys (monarch and emperor) I had a so called Killer-AI in my game, meaning a very powerful AI civ, and I had to struggle greatly to break even in tech. I don't know if this depends on Theseus' map settings, but it seems so. 3 billion years make very rough terrain, and industrious civs have a big advantage. Both Killer-AI's were industrious (Chinese, French), while I was not. Now, what's the best way to break even in tech and get a lead?

There are several ways possible. The "beat the AI up" strategy works great in the ancient and medieval age, but as soon as the AI gets Nationalism, it fails. The AI builds big stacks of good defenders, and winning an aggressive war with cavalries (no inf/arty yet) is almost impossible, and yields big own casualties. To research a tech out of the AI's beeline, and then trade, is also a good approach, and it works good in the industrial age, because the AI puts low priority to Medicine. But this tech I give away only after I have built the Theory of Evolution, which is also a must have. But the AI remains powerful.

As soon as I nearly broke even, in both games I used another approach to secure my further advance. First I thought about beating the AI up. But this would mean big military spendings, long unit production (in a time where I want to industrialize) and awful casualties. Plus the risk to lose the war to the big AI stacks. No, I remembered the Master's voice, Love thy enemy. Instead of fighting the Killer-AI (which means awful losses), I allied up with it and went to beat somebody else. As we all know, the AI's love MPPs and eagerly seeks them in this time. And there's nothing better for me than an AI, that goes Communist after a few turns, due to war weariness. The AI loses time for 2 anarchies (neither the French nor the Chinese are religious) and the Communist government does quite poor in research. I do all possible to remain a Republic or Democracy. I take unfair trades for luxury resources, or I sell an outdated tech to a vassal for a luxury, I increase the luxury spending up to 30-40%, I let my own research suffer and sometimes my people even starve. Only to survive the 20 turns. Then I cancel the pact and go out of the war. The AI usually allied up with other AI's and has to stay in war a tad bit longer and is not a killer AI anymore. In both games I secured a pretty good lead by this way.

How is your approach to break even in a situation like this and to secure a tech lead?

[Pythagoras]

Generally I try to suck up to people bigger than me and conquer those who are smaller.

[DeepO]

Pretty similar. As you said, AIs love MPPs, so at breaking points (like when just getting even in tech at the start of industrial age) an MPP, or an alliance is perfect. And instead of one civ, try to get half the world in the battle, by allying with a few civs at once. Target the least aggressive civs, the military civs will join the world war anyhow. And what I find a particularly nasty technique is offering a large amount of money to the target civ just before allying against him, this will make sure he can find allies for himself. If everybody bashes one civ, the war will be over too soon.

What is different is the way I handle war weariness: instead of going in full force, I try to pick enemy targets carefully (resources), and after that only defend the new territory. As a result, war weariness is not hard, even under a democracy. It increases a lot when you are attacking aggressively, but when fighting in your own territory, only occasionnaly taking a city it remains more or less steady. I never have to divert science to luxuries.

One downside to this approach is that you have to make sure your military power is up to date, after you cancel the MPPs and alliances, there's a big chance at least one of your former partners comes after you.

DeepO

[jshelr]

My approach to killer AI's has been to ignore the hell out of them. The key to winning against a killer AI is refusing to leave your own turf.

This "stategy" has exactly the same goal as Sir Ralph's. It's based on a couple of tested ideas. Put simply, you don't need a tech lead heading into the modern age. All you need is a well built economy (= factories + power plants + railroads), a decent defense force, which includes some tanks to attack intruders, and at least 25 artillery. Bombers help. You have to be able to whittle a large AI stack's offensive punch down to size in two turns. That combination of forces will normally do the job until the AI have moderan armor and mech infantry-- and you can get those first, in fact far sooner than the AI. Leading up to the modern age, you can calmly and patiently lurk in the background, buying tech at half price if you are behind until you catch up. Play nice with everyone during this period. If you are a scientific civ, you will probably move ahead at the turn to the modern age. But any civ will do. In my experience, you can rush for synthetic fibers -- the AI will go toward nukes. But the key is that the AI will always fight with each other during this span and will usually research recycling, putting you far in the lead where it counts if you can stay in democracy and trade tech wisely. The top AI civs will be militarily weakened nearly every time and their own railroad systems make them ripe for plucking. If you have SS turned off, modern armor are the most powerful weapon in the game with the best chance for a smaller civ to get a come-from-behind win. Upgrade your tanks and don't be shy. If SS is turned on have a nice trip. The race won't be very close.

[dawidge]

Sir Ralph's dictum is just the time honored practice of diplomacy.

DIP-lo-ma-cy (n) the art of saying "nice doggie" while reaching for a stick.

[Qilue]

I find Industrial era is where the players and the wannabes bare separated out. The trick I've also found is doing the right tech beelines, a decent workforce and some precise timing. I only play on huge maps so the following may not be workable on smaller maps.

I'm generally last or near last into industrial with only 1 game where I managed a first place tie with 3 others. I'm generally first to modern by a rather large margin with my first ever game being the only one where I wasn't (I was second). In my last game, I had researched all but 4 modern techs by the time any of the AIs had reached it.

Steam power, Industrialization, Sanitation, Replaceable parts, Theory of Evolution and Hoover dam, in that order. Everything else can wait. In fact, 1.21f ToE makes industrial even faster.

First, and foremost, you must have all cities roaded and all their improvements done and a lot of workers to get the rails built 'fast', 150+ on a huge map is a nice number.

Second, ignore nationalism and beeline to industrialization first and then Sanitation. Railroads + big cities + high production = 4 turn tech research. I organize my city list in decending order of production with the top 12-16 used for unit production and the rest on Wealth once their improvements are done.

By this time, you should be able to buy Nationalism and Communism from the AI (about 1400 gold each). Get the Police stations build as third most important after Factories and Hospitals as soon as you have the tech. Then beeline for Scientific method and time the building of ToE so it finishes the same turn a tech is researched. You can usually get Replaceable parts during this time. Set the next tech as Atomic theory and then take Electronics as the second.

Build Hoover Dam. Even throw a GL at it if you have a spare. Higher production -> more gold -> faster research.

Getting back to the army of workers, once the rails are done, start adding them to the cities where hospitals have been built. Keep a few aside for pollution cleanup and some more for a special project.

Select a city or two with all or mostly grassland squares that has mostly completed improvements. Irrigate all of the squares and add workers until it's size 20. Set it's production to workers. It's growth rate should be 1 turn which is good for 1 worker per turn with no reduction of city population. Add them to cities with slow growth or potential high production.

You now have an industrial capacity probably greater than all of the AIs combined. The world is now your oister. Starting a few wars like described above will help give you an even greater lead into Modern.

[jshelr]

Right on!! This last contribution by Qilue is great advice. Compare this to what happened to Catt on the strategy board. War is ok, but you have to have the industrial base to do it right.

[Alkis]

Crush your enemies also works here

Another thing that also works is to ally with all the others against the strong AI civ. If you like have a look at my post on the Diplomacy database thread. The situation there, was different though.

Sir Ralph had in mind a very strong France who was on the same continent as he. It's obvious that he wanted to avoid fighting them because they were too strong. But there is one factor, a very important factor that can give you victory, the AI plays terribly in the industrial age wars.

Suppose the AI has a very big stack of infantries/rifflemen. Fifty of them, one hundred, two hundred, it doesn't really matter if you are prepared and know how to play. If you fortify a single infantry next to that stack the AI won't attack it. For some reason it doesn't consider it a strategic target. By fortifying infantries around them you can get them to go where you want. Meanwhile, you use bombardment and attack them with tanks if you have. You create a temp city and lead them there using that method. The AI will attack the gambit city if it has no other options. If it's possible you build the city on a hill and of course, you fill it up with your own infantries. You will have casualties, sure you will, but the AI will have a lot more. If you lose the city it doesn't matter, make another one.

You can even block them in such a way that eventually they go back and forth, while you bombard them turn after turn. Then it will try to retreat damaged units back home and you can attack them before they escape. Just try it and you will see what I mean, it's really easy.

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[Harovan]

I faced a stack of about 180 french footsoldiers in the late game (the French sneak attacked me) and used all these tactics you described, although some of them are more an exploit than a strategy. However, French bombardement and war weariness crippled my coreland severely. Plus, I made a mistake to sign a MPP with another strong power (Iroquois, after they ate the Aztecs). I should have made a simple alliance. An alliance I can break, making peace. A MPP not.

In the first minitourney, the Killer AI China was on the other continent. Both strategies worked. Theseus allied with the Romans and Zulus against the Chinese, I allied with the Chinese against the Romans and Zulus. We did both pretty well.

But the point of my post is, force your enemy (the Killer AI) into Communism, while you can stay a Republic/Democracy. Involve the AI in a world war and then bail out. I can't achieve this, when I fight the Killer AI itself.

[Alkis]

I see

I agree with you that some of the things I mentioned are more an exploit than a strategy. Well, what can I say? I' m not a saint

Btw can you translate what that great general (Blucher) said? I am very interested and curious to know.

[Harovan]

"Who today at evening is neither dead nor drunken of delight, must have fought like an infamous coward"

He said it to his troops on the verge of the Battle of Nations near Leipzig, October 1813, one of the biggest battles of the liberation wars against Napoleon. Although both sides took awful casualties (100000 dead and injured), Napoleon lost. After the battle, an awful epidemy hit the city from the smell of all these corpses. A nice place, this Leipzig. I was born there .

[Alkis]

Thx